Michele: 

What Clarissa Silva and I are going to be talking about is a different perspective. We often hear and and I shared with her this article, and I have to step back and drop in a link, which was talking about how tech companies have been trying to fix people, but not itself. It talked about how the last 50 years tech companies have created training programs, but diversity has not moved in that industry. And we’re going to talk about on the data side why so welcome up, everybody. Miss Clarissa Silva.

Clarissa: 
Thank you. Hi, Michelle. Thank you so much. It’s truly an honor to be here.

Michele: 

Again, honored and stuff I get. So can you tell everybody watching and listening about yourself like behavioral scientists? Like what are you talking about and equitable workplace like what’s really going on?

Clarissa: 
So right, I was trained in behavioral science at the University of Michigan 20 years ago. And at that time, I specialized in infectious disease and mental health. So I am double board certified in, in mental health and in behavioral science. So behavioral science is really a comprehensive strategic research approach to create individual group or systemic change the the comprehensive part of behavioral science in the strategic part of a behavioral sciences that we look at problems from the full lifecycle, plus impact and outcome. So I practice in HIV AIDS for 20 years prior to becoming an entrepreneur. And I started my entrepreneurial venture with my research consulting firm, because I saw the absence of really that comprehensive, full lifecycle outcome and impact studies being conducted in products that we’re using every day. So I wouldn’t I engage with companies at every every stage of the full lifecycle of research. But really, the the behavioral science approach that that makes our strategy so different is that we focus on outcome and impact first, and then work backwards to make sure that you create sustainable change, or you have included within your design, things that would help ameliorate the consumer or ameliorate the experience.

Michele: 
I love I love how you said outcome and impact first, and in the entire lifecycle. And so, right now, more than probably the last 50 years or so we’re seeing more tactics being displayed on really mostly on diversity recruitment, as opposed to employers looking at the employee lifecycle. And let’s dig into that for a minute. So they’re looking at the recruitment side, only what should employers really be considering? If they’re looking if they’re, they’re trying to figure out how to create an equitable workplace?

Clarissa: 
So let’s begin with with the first problem, right, the first problem is, definitions of diversity have a lot of variants, right? So if that diversity definition has variants, then the measurement and the type of programs and strategies that you’re using, we’ll only cover aspects that fall within that definition. So when when behavioral science walks into a company and starts looking at some of those definitions, and we see flaws, because they’re not as comprehensive, because if it’s not a comprehensive definition of diversity, then you’re truncating the outcome, right? And you’re truncating which you’re looking at, and you’re developing indicators around, almost very superficial level indicator and metrics, right? So the development of what you’re trying to create, can seem like you solved for diversity if you just hire right. So I now I must have You know, I am now a much more optimal organization because I have, Ooh, let’s brag. I got, I hired two black engineers, I hired a Latina scientist. So those three people do not represent a comprehensive approach to diversity, it is just that just hiring is the outcome for for many, and how they define how they resolve the problem of diversity and companies. So our work goes, extends a little bit further than that, because now you have to consider what does wellness look like? What does what kinds of benefits should be offered? What kinds of way could we wrap around being supportive within even that individual’s full lifecycle? Right, like we have done projects that looked at caregiving, and what kinds of optimal benefits match for different lifestyles. So. So that’s the first problem point, right? So your measurement is going to be off, when you’re that level of variance exists, when you’re considering even your definition of diversity, because technically, companies will just stop at the one outcome of, hey, I have hired this, I have done this. So now you’re just going to be treated just like every other employee perform, right? And ignore the aspects of what diversity really needs. So so those are, that’s, that’s the quick and dirty of how I would encase the biggest problem when companies are trying to approach the diversity problem in general.

Michele: 
Thank you so much, Clarissa. Okay, so what what I want to talk to talk about next is we’re seeing a lot of organizations with these entry level training programs to diversify the talent pipeline, can we talk about what they’re measuring? And what what is really for the employee lifecycle they should be measuring.

Clarissa: 
So even even that has variants, right. So there are, so ideally, the training programs are designed to try to remove the the level of disparity that exists, right. But for for a long time now, right? We have had an influx of these programs that are designed to be training or mentorship style, to help promote or recruit or retain talents that you wouldn’t normally have access to. So the problem really is within that, again, variance, right? It’s, it’s not just that you have retained created a program that recruited and your training so that you can help reduce that disparity. But you also have to consider, alright, it’s not enough to just enroll people in programs, right, you have to focus on the outcomes of how I mean, let’s consider what you go through, you have graduated from the training program, and now you’re placed in it within the organization. Okay. Now, how many of those trained employees are going to be promoted? How frequently? You know, what are the what were what would be the optimal conditions to get them promoted? And what timeframe would it require for those promotions to happen? And the second side of it is okay, you’re still you’re still aiming for equity and parity. So now, most companies just stop at the point of, okay, I’ve trained enrolled, graduated, right? That’s, and that’s a full, and that’s a full intervention in and of itself. Right. But it’s, but see things fall short when it ends at that graduation point, right, because employee satisfaction is going to be the main driver of wanting to stay within the company, right? Because it’s, you have one you’re going through these internal training programs. And and I’m talking about internal programs that the promote growth for the employee, we’ll also talk about programs that are designed that are specifically to targeted for Black and Latinos. Right. But we’ll we’ll go into let’s finish off the employee section. Right. So, so what what you’re most interested in as a company is that retention, right? That retention has to be this, it has to be consistent across, right? And have additional considerations when you have black or Latino employees or indigenous employees, non white, let’s just say non white employees, we, we should be right, we should also be considering what types of wraparound supportive services that we could provide to ensure that that employee will absolutely be retained, right, but promoted and be able to, to evolve into leadership positions, so that the the style of management decision making can create cultural shifts. So really, when you’re when you’re looking at the most optimal conditions, it you know, is to create these systemic and group level changes so that the culture can try can can transform into a much more inclusive environment.

Michele: 
Thank you, thank you for breaking that down. Number one, the two types, we look at the internal and external programs and what what are they really doing and so forth. So for employers that have decided to do these programs, what their level of success is measured by how many people complete the programs. When we look at it, we’re looking weaving people who are black people who are lead next people who are indigenous other people call, we’re looking at a different metric, oftentimes. So what should organizations literally be trying to figure out as to what is their onset or goals? Because we look at pictures and magazines encounter brown and black faces. So our experiences are different. So what should employees really be considering?

Clarissa: 
So the first thing is like, we have to start from the baseline of there is zero understanding of what Black and Latino populations in need, or non white populations, marginalized populations, however, you know, we want to to look at groups of people that have different needs, right? And that they also have a different style of approach, different style of strategy. Right? So when we just consider, you know, I mean, even when you look at one aspect, like by lingual, and look at that impact across cognition, right, that, technically, when you’re multi, you’re bilingual, you’re also multi cognitive and by cognitive, right? So when we, when we start thinking about what needs to exist as the optimal conditions, we have to start from a basic baseline, right? You have to begin a research study, like you would do any research study, you have to conduct focus groups, gendered and inclusive, right. And discover what types of support right, because companies need to understand the experience first. Right. And, you know, luckily, we’re having conversations now, that is looking at Trauma driven mental health, the racism as a effects on mental health as a core, right. And we’re looking at how we can better wraparound supports for for all employees, right, like, you know, so I’ll give you a case example. Right? We looked at caregiving, right? So, so caregiving, we, we offer two types of interventions, right, one voucher, and one in in house. At the at the company where you’re bringing your child and there’s a in house caregiving. Most of the black and Latino moms wanted the voucher, right, like they needed to have That separation and and know that they didn’t have to worry, right? Because that that aspect of worrying also impacts their performance throughout the day. Right? So, so, so we have to start there, right? We have to start by really deep diving and exploratory and analysis and exploratory kind of research to figure out what are the best and, and like, what are the best things we can offer our employees that will keep them and that they will want to stay and be promoted. So that you could, you could get that last piece of, of the behavioral science pie of that outcome and impact you’re aiming for for divisional cultural, you know, level change, more than more than just okay, the employee needs these sets of support systems around them, we have to also consider these aspects of, of their mental health and their well being. So and on the other side, too, is that the whites employees also have to be trained, and also have to understand what comes from those focus groups, and understand how to minimize some of that trauma driven mental health that that consistently happens in the workplace.

Michele: 
You ended it on the highest note trauma driven interactions in the workplace. And and some people don’t realize how traumatic the workplace is for us. And just just an aside, having conversations about who wants to return to the workplace after working from home. And the employers like, Wait, I don’t understand why more people don’t want to come back. I highly. I asked you to look at who doesn’t want to come back? Because that may be a telling story. And again, it’s something you said, and I want to highlight this comment, a couple comments, actually. First, she’s been hanging out with us all day, Dr. Bhatt, Karissa, silvar, appreciate how you framed us to find what diversity is first. And so as you go through your organization, and you’re looking at people who don’t want to come back, and you’re like, they must come back look and see who doesn’t want to come back. Right. And you, you then may find out that where you thought you had an equitable workplace, these other people, for whatever reason aren’t may not be fine and equitable, you have a lot of questions to go ask. And a lot of things get answered. But by simply saying, Oh, it’s not enough of them. It’s only 6% or 12%, or 40%. The majority rules, I highly encourage you not to take that stance, but instead to look and see who really isn’t coming back. So let me continue, I’ll finish I pause in the middle of the statement, what diversity is the current state of our organization and what it is what it really is compare it to what we want, it helps us figure out how to address the two diversity problem we are experiencing. And oftentimes we don’t look at that we assume is gender and race. And they are differently abled, or often use disabled. We look at LGBTQ community, and all of these other layers of intersectionality that we don’t focus on, we don’t discuss, because it’s always these two, can we ever get past it? I don’t know. Hopefully, in our lifetime, we will. Hopefully, we will have a lot of a lot of movement and traction on this. So I did want to share that. Clarissa any thoughts?

Clarissa: 

Thank you, Dr. Pearson. Absolutely. Right. Yes. Because one, just one human being is intersectional. Mac, you know, meta level, right? Like so. So when we when we just think about the complexities on on, on just one human being level. Now COVID The other blend of this diversity is risk tolerance, right? There’s even like, at if we could, Dr. Pearson, we can continue to add so many elements to to just what we really have to figure out to resolve issues that create dissatisfaction, discontent, or just up there, they’re just leaving. They’re just leaving because you You are in such a sub optimal place.

Michele: 
Absolutely. Absolutely. Just one more comment, I’m feeling very motivated by all the messages that are being shared here today. Thank you, you’re very welcome. Glad you could join us. If there are things that you’re like, I missed that I was taking notes, I was reading Dr. Pearson’s messages, comments, you can always go over to the website and be sure to register there. Now we’re in the last few minutes these go by way quicker than we thought I can tell you that much. What what I do want you to talk about a bit is for organizations that have these programs. And they they’re really trying to figure out why they still have a diversity problem. What should what do they really need to be doing right now? Like, we’ve been running this program for five years or seven years? And we don’t know what’s going on? Exactly. What What would you say to them?

Clarissa: 
So let’s go back to measurement. Right. So if we could really adjust our thinking to be more impact driven and cultural and systemic change driven, rather than CSR line, or a percentage for this or percentage for that, you know, we were addressing the problem, right, like implementing incremental levels of change. Right. So and that is all driven by impact and outcome of, of how you’re structuring your program. It’s not enough to hire. Right? You have to have promotion, because you have to have executive level change. Right? And remember, the biggest benefit is, is that multi cognitive, like, you know, from from, from a business perspective, and bottom line is, okay, the cost of retaining that type of talent, and this and the strategy, right, like, the strategy that we develop is the far more comprehensive and far more inclusive, right, because we have dealt with absence so much, that we know what it would be if we have full. Right? So So companies have to begin approaching things, you know, from a behavioral science driven outcome and impact measurement, right? It’s not enough to hire, it’s not enough to, you know, add elements that you think are ameliorating circumstances within that individual’s life, it has to translate into incremental changes across structure to to even enhance, like, even be able to impact cultural change. So, so outcome and impact has to shift in companies.

Michele: 
Absolutely, absolutely. Agree. I’m out. I love this. I want to share one other comments, something we talked about a few minutes. I love this, I did a big return of Office survey for a company in June, when we splice by race and ethnicity for caregiver status, there’s a there are huge differences. The caregiving responsibilities of Latin X, Black and Asian men and women are 1.7 to two times those of white men. And so we like come back, then it’s still a pandemic going on. What do you mean, come back? If if we were fortunate enough, remember, also for the black and Latin X communities, many of us were not fortunate to have remote jobs. Remember, all of a sudden we became essential workers, but not so much essential anymore? So I do want to thank you for sharing that. Yes. Thank you.

Clarissa: 
Yeah, we also observed a similar pattern, because the responsibility was a loaded one, right, because there’s intergenerational relatives, like and sandwich, right, like you have your parents and your children. So the, the just to contextualize a little bit well, because we did a similar similar exploratory study, right. And we found that risk tolerance varied tremendously, you know, depending on the age of the child, and if there was an aging parents in the home, right. So it’s like, double triple risk. Right. So So yes, risk tolerance is also something that is guiding a lot of a lot of the COVID transition work now and how Hopefully, you know, we’ll see even even those types of models and those types of offerings to to, to, to be more responsive to what employee needs really are.

Michele: 
Absolutely, absolutely. So Clarissa how this has been absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us today. How can people connect with you? So absolutely,

Clarissa: 

LinkedIn. And if you want to read more about some of the research that I’ve been conducting, you know, since COVID, and some of the decision making work I have, it’s Clarissa silva.com. But LinkedIn, please don’t hesitate to reach out if I can help in any way.

Michele: 
I love it. So I’m gonna do this real quick. For the, for those of you who didn’t catch it, but you can also catch her at Clarissa silva.com If if my internet wants wants to work with me. So let’s, let’s show this. Yes. Wow. Also go to Clarissa silva.com To learn more, but this like, this is why you have a behavioral scientists can’t enjoy it is behavior based on on what is going on in the workplace. So Clarissa, thank you so much for joining us. People. Be sure to connect with her on LinkedIn. Go to her website. Check it out. She has something for you so you can bring up create an equitable workplace. Thanks, Clarissa.

Clarissa: 

Thank you, Michelle.