Michele: 

Welcome, everybody. Thank you so much for joining me today. I have a fantastic guest, Dr. AJ is with us and I I’m really excited to have her here today, because she is the founder and CEO of AJ Rojas, a boutique firm whose motto is making the invisible visible for better equity and belongingness. She is the creator of the culturally competent conversations for equity and belongingness summit and brand. She is also an award winning diversity, equity inclusion, belongingness and leadership strategist and one of the top 20 career coaches in the Metro Detroit area. So you are in for a fantastic time. One other thing I want to mention, or some some other things, she’s a spouse, a parent, to our neuro distant district, the state child and a two time trauma brain injury survivor, turn worrying advocate. So he is on today because she has not only encountered and overcome, but now she’s bringing to the world of D ay and b into the workplace. So welcome. So welcome to to the show. Dr. AJ, it is great to have you.

Dr. AJ: 
Thank you so much, Michelle, thank you. And I am so grateful to have this conversation with you and excited to have this conversation with you as well.

Michele: 
How did you get started in this industry? What made you kind of navigate towards the EIB?

Dr. AJ: 

So my background is in social and personality psychology, I got my doctorate in social and personality psychology. And in that space, I was already studying group dynamics, good culture formation, organizational culture, interpersonal relationships, and so on and so forth. And one thing, you know, and all of this was happening as I was going through my personal journey with my traumatic brain injuries, as well as the recovery aspect, and everything else. And so I just started noticing a couple of things in the intersections of the spaces that my journey took me to, and one of those was just how, you know, much of the science that we use in this space, much of the science that we use in this arena, is it comes from a very Western perspective comes from a very light, you know, almost like a whitewashed perspective, in the sense that the majority of the research is driven in, in in western and predominantly white institutions. And we don’t get to see too much representation in terms of other types of research, especially in social, you know, is specifically in social sciences. And and to clarify, what I also mean by that is to say that the research that I was looking at, and the majority of the research in the field does have a white male baseline. And it’s sort of like all other groups are compared against that white male male baseline, which is a part of the systemic structures that we’ve created in society. Right. So on the academic end, that was something I was noticing, and I was trying to figure out, like, Where do I relate, like, Where do I fit in here? And what does it mean for me, if my baseline is white male, but I don’t know anything about that, right? Like, I that’s not who I am. That’s, like, if you can’t compare me to a white male, I’m not a white male. Um, so that that was going on. And then through my personal journey, and through my recovery process, what I realized is, you know, that whole making your invisible visible, it was actually a personal journey for me, in my recovery process, there was a lot of me having to unpack all of the messages that I was receiving from society of, you should do this, you ought to do this, you can do this, you cannot do this. This is not how you should be all of those to kind of try and figure out, you know, where I fit it where I belonged. And I realized that was the key is that Society renders as invisible in so many ways. And then we internalize those stories and we create these narratives, which then become limiting beliefs in terms of what we think we are capable of and what our competence levels are, and what we are truly capable of, if we took those aside. So by combining all of that, and of course, the story is longer, but I don’t want to get into the nuts and bolts of it. But essentially, kind of combining all of that is how I realized that I really just belonged in the dei and B space to to try and move the needle from just diversity numbers, which is, you know, how we’re currently operating to equity, intentional equity, intentional belongingness, and intentional inclusion, because diversity has never been the problem. Diversity has always existed, our understanding of it, and our intention behind making things equitable and inclusive is what the problem is, and that’s what we should be solving for.

Michele:

So now that you are focused on removing the whitewash this of it, how are you? How do you go about and talk to companies about equity, and belonging?

Dr. AJ: 

Um, so it really kind of depends on the company, right? Like, and it depends on their current makeup and things like that. But some of the things that I talked to them about are, you know, where are their dei and B initiatives? Like, what are they doing towards diversity, equity, inclusion and belongingness? And is that their initiatives? Are they purely performative? Or are they actually addressing the needs of the employee population? You know, because a lot of times what happens is people will think that diversity solutions are band aids, but oftentimes, it requires surgery, right to get past, again, the diversity numbers to make and create an overall organizational culture that is equitable and inclusive. And that’s where the businesses benefit to. It’s not just for the employee benefit. So a lot of conversations kind of go in that aspect in terms of what are you doing right now? How does this align with your, you know, business? What more can you do? Why, you know, have you thought about doing this? Why aren’t you doing that? And and again, what this and that are is specific to the business?

Michele: 
Absolutely. As we actually think back to prior to the murder of George Floyd, how was how are you getting? What was the, I guess, the feedback from organizations when you talked about in that lens, as opposed to after the murder of George Floyd?

Dr. AJ: 

You know, it’s interesting. That’s a really interesting question. Because, Truly speaking, I the response, beyond the performative nature hasn’t actually changed in that. This pervasive myth that there is a shortage of diverse talent existed even before the murder of Mr. George Floyd even before the COVID-19 pandemic, and in so many ways, while people are saying that diversity, equity and inclusion and belongingness are critical right now, that myth is still pervasive. I constantly faced this Yes, I’d love to focus on diversity, equity, inclusion and belongingness. But there is a shortage of diverse talent and the thing is, there isn’t a shortage of diverse talent. The there is there is a seeing and hearing problem in terms of where are we sourcing our talent from? How are we nurturing our talent to retain them, and how are we focusing on developing our talent to grow them through the employee lifecycle, especially when right now we are moving towards a work culture where the average you know Employee experience in any given company is about three years. Right? And so and and then the employee kind of moves. But also what you see within that is a lot of companies aren’t moving past the recruitment point, we’re talking about, oh, let’s let’s recruit from diverse areas, let’s recruit through diverse channels and diverse sources. And then what we’re finding is that even with diversity in recruitment, the even if you have a number, a greater number of applicants from historically marginalized communities, how many of them are getting hired? And how many of them are actually staying? What are your attrition rates? What are your turnover rates? What are the costs that you are incurring, in terms of having to re hire and retrain? Because you are not taking care of the diverse needs of your diverse population? And I feel like diverse is such an overused word. But at the same time, um, you know, let’s reframe that to historically marginalized communities, communities that have historically been left out of leadership roles,
what does what what is your bench strength? Right? What is your leadership bench look like? What is that bench strength? You know? And are you stopping just that diversity of thought? Because that diversity of thought isn’t all that diverse if you don’t have proper representation of the diversity from all of the spectrums of diversity? So I’ll stop there.

Michele: 

No, I love it. And I agree that diversity is only looked at at recruiting at entry level, when it’s so much more and I and, and I want to get into accountability, because what I found is the only the tracking is dying on the recruitment side. But where does accountability or the lack of accountability when it comes to creating equity and belongingness within an organization, because I see that as the huge fault, or issue and all of this is recruiting fault? If it doesn’t happen, it’s DNI is the aim. And B is only in that department as opposed to entire organization. And so let’s, I want to get your feedback and your perspective on that.

Dr. AJ: 

Absolutely. So I think you’ve touched on a few important pieces, interconnected pieces here, right? So one of the things is often exactly as you said, D and di NB are kind of relegated to the storage closet of the organization, where they are an outside goal, that that that you know that they’re the extra goal that are not tied into the other business goals, or to the strategic vision or mission of the company. And it gets a separate budget instead of having a budget that is tied into the rest of the business goals. And then so that’s automatically a problem, you’re automatically separating diversity, equity, inclusion and belongingness. And kind of putting them aside as a separate thing instead of the underpinning of everything that you know that that your company should be about. So that and so already there. We have accountability problems, because if it’s if it’s relegated to the storage closet, as I like to say, then if it’s just a side thing, where is the pressure for accountability? Right, that’s the first layer, then there’s the layer of oftentimes, it’s one or maybe two or three people that get hired into these DDI roles. And oftentimes, they are people from historically marginalized communities. So they get the title and they get the role, and they are not given any authority to actually make change. They are not given budgets to make change. So now what are they going to do? Within those constraints? There’s not much that can be done within those constraints. So where does accountability fall there? You know, how can you measure accountability? When you haven’t given it, the people doing this for the tools to hold themselves accountable for and the tool is to hold everybody else accountable with you know, so that’s a second layer. Then there’s a third layer of metrics. Right, our metrics are outdated. We know our metrics are outdated because our language has evolved so much about just the spectrum of diversity. So, but the metrics are, the metrics are still at the compliance level, the EEOC and the ADA level, nothing beyond that. So oftentimes, they don’t take into account no distinctness, they don’t take into account socioeconomic status, they don’t take into account whether you are a single parent with four children or whether you are a single person with no dependence in your life. They don’t take any of these into account. And these metrics change from company to company to company. There’s no standardization. And so No, there there was no benchmarks, right? Because there’s no standardization. And then the last thing I’ll say is that, you know, relating to the metrics is we can’t have diverse, like, if you have diversity metrics, you’re already not holding yourself accountable. Because when you are talking about diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging this, let’s get specific about what you mean. Because you can’t clump all the spectrums of diversity into diversity, as one word, you have to have metrics that address ethnic diversity, cultural diversity, immigration, status, diversity, gender diversity, sexual orientation, diversity, cognitive diversity, language diversity, you have to get specific because unless you get specific, again, what benchmarks are you putting in place? And is your space psychologically safe for people to disclose many of these that they’re not required to disclose, but would be in their benefit? If your spaces if you haven’t created a psychologically safe space, you’re not going to get your employees buying into this, if you haven’t created that trust, you’re not going to get employees buying into this. And if they’re not buying into this, it goes back to that question of who are you doing this for?

Michele: 
Hence, it’s performative.

Dr. AJ: 

Exactly.

Michele: 

Exactly. So 2020 came about a lot of a lot of need a lot of more performative action we’ve seen from companies, but also a lot of a lot of calls for help from D ay, and B practitioners. How did you respond to that call?

Dr. AJ: 

Um, I responded by creating the C three B summit. So Exactly. Absolutely. I’d love to tell you a little bit more about that. So the C three Eb summit is a virtual platform that I created, and it stands for culturally competent conversations for equity and belongingness. And I created that platform to address three issues really, one is again, going back to that myth of the shortage of diverse talent. Nope, nope, that’s a myth. So let’s let’s dismantle that myth and break it apart. And then the second one is to kind of flip the script on these traditional dei talks and conversations that happen because oftentimes, companies because they’re not, they haven’t tapped into their why and their meaning behind all of this. Oftentimes, what ends up happening is you either end up with consultants who have a ton of the book, and theoretical knowledge, but no lived experiences, or you put the burden on those with lived experiences, but don’t have the technical knowledge, both of those are detrimental to the individuals involved as well as to the organization’s business bottom line. And, and and many of these conferences even now, even after all of this talk about diversity, equity and inclusion, have not kind of changed that format, where we see the usual like, you know, 10 to 12, white men, one or two white women, and then that one token person of color, or that token person from a historically marginalized group, which tokenization is incredibly harmful, incredibly harmful to the person. So the summit that I created was really to address all of those and also to address the fear that I hear from many Many, many, especially many of the older white leaders, white male leaders, that somehow including others means excluding themselves. of if everybody gets to talk, then I don’t get to talk, right. And so the tagline for the C three Eb summit is actually inclusion is not a zero sum game, and neither are equity and belonging this, we should not be looking at this as a zero sum game. So the C three B platform highlights the voices and perspectives of people from historically marginalized communities within their own zones of genius. So not everybody on the C three Eb platform is a D, and B practitioner. Every almost everybody on the C three Eb platform is an experienced professional from a historically marginalized group within their own sectors, and we cover nine sectors all the way from corporate small business, education, environment, financial and economic policy and infrastructure, health and wellness, society and culture, and data tech and analytics.
So so that’s really what this platform is about. And yeah, we, we had a phenomenal response. We launched in August of 2020. And yes, I did kind of a, I was a little angry when I decided to do this just from these responses I was getting. But it turned out to be a really great thing we put the initial the first summit that we put together, our launch was a nine weeks and we had 46 speakers 41 were came from historically marginalized communities, whether that’s black, indigenous, or other people of color lgbtqi Plus, or people who are visibly or invisibly disabled 41 out of the 46. And we had, I think just over 11,000 views, on just that inaugural summit, it was a three day hackathon for equity and inclusion. And so using that momentum, we just read that and turned it into a quarterly summit. And that so that we had the second summit in November. And that was focused on improving the accessibility of equity and inclusion initiatives in our talent pipelines. So it focused on education, small business and corporate and improving the accessibility of these initiatives, that one had about 5000, because it was a shorter summit. And our next one is coming up actually on February 18, and 19th. And this time, we are focusing specifically on economic and financial equity, policy and infrastructure equity, as well as environmental equity all the way from climate crisis to immediate access to resources in your immediate environment for historically marginalized communities again, and so that one’s coming up just in a couple of weeks. And we’re really excited about that. And we have some great, great speakers.

Michele:

excited about it, too, it sounds like a great summit. And when you think about it, just just something the access to even the internet, right, clean water are still issues and food, especially during the pandemic are huge issues right now. And so, so don’t think really small and narrow. Think about all that the impact of access education, water, internet, food, how that really impacts so many people in around the US. And so I love the topic because it taps in and focuses on areas. Others oftentimes forget. And they don’t that, well, the education system is just fine. It depends where you are and what school district you’re in. And if you can pay for private schools and things like that. So the access is not equal at all.

Dr. AJ: 

Exactly, exactly. You know, when we think about equity and inclusion, all of the issues are interconnected, and they go back to the human need to belong, right, which is a fundamental human drive. All of the issues are interconnected, but the solutions that people are thinking of right now, and this is why we’re not able to move past diversity now. The solutions are happening in silos, which is also why the solutions are not sustainable. This is why I call them band aids instead of surgery. But when we start thinking about the interconnected nature, for equity and inclusion,
we then when we understand that our solutions have to be interconnected as well. And that we have to approach them in a in a multi pronged approach outside of the silos, that’s when we can get anywhere in terms of even talking about what
would
an equitable solution even look like in the ideation phase, let alone the implementation phase. But if we’re siloing the things even at the ideation phase and separating them, then we’re already setting ourselves up for failure. So my big kind of key point, you know, like key push here is, we’re failing, because we’ve been setting ourselves up for failure, let’s set ourselves up for success. Because at the end of the day, this society that we’re leaving for our kids and their kids, man, they deserve so much better.
Like, and
it is our responsibility as productive citizens to do what we can to get it to, to at least take it a couple of steps further. So that then they can take it a couple of steps further, while also tackling with their generational problems.

Michele:

Absolutely. So Dr. AJ, how can people connect with you.

Dr. AJ: 

Um, so the easiest way is just email me, AJ at AJ Ri o.com. And that’s a J, the letters A j at a jrao.com. And, you know, one thing I would like to say is, we would love for companies to walk this walk with us, because obviously, you know, we want this to be a movement, we want this, we want the resources that we have the speakers that we’re bringing in the insights that we’re bringing in, we want companies to take advantage of those to really make dei and be diversity, equity, inclusion, and belongingness a part of their overall culture and business goals. And to get these principles out of the storage closet, dust them out and put them really in the rightful place that they belong in. So we have so many sponsorship and partnership opportunities available for companies who want to walk the walk, and please reach out. We’re happy, happy to work with you to help you and how you know, whatever ways we can with whatever your issues are, and whatever solutions that you need.

Michele: 

Thank you so much, Dr. AJ, for coming on today and talking about creating equity and belonging, introducing us to this C three Eb summit, because it’s absolutely fantastic that you’re doing on a quarterly basis, right. And so it’s always something to learn and grow from and so many different areas of the Ei, NB. Everybody, be sure you’re following Dr. AJ, on LinkedIn, you have our email address, and definitely check out this summit. It is something for everyone every quarter to help you grow. Even if you’re not a DI MB expert. It is part of the entire organization from top to bottom. It is not just in a department. It’s broom closet. Right? So definitely, definitely do that. So Dr. AJ, thank you so much for joining me today.

Dr. AJ: 

Thank you so much. And for everyone on LinkedIn. Actually, if they just type in C three Eb summit into their search bar, we have a whole showcase page on LinkedIn where you can see some of the past speakers and what they talked about. So you can get a much better idea of the enormity of the scope of this movement and how you can participate in it. And Michelle, thank you so much for bringing me on to have this conversation, this incredibly critical conversation and for giving me the space to add my voice to it.

Michele: 

I appreciate it. Everybody. Have a great week and we will talk to you later.

Bye everyone. Bye