We’re gonna be talking about a storytelling metrics for inclusion. And we have Deb pectinata and Su mentor coming up from the company. ulu story. And fantastic like, Deb has had a career spanning for decades for decades. Deb work has served. Deb has always served public interests. She served as an assistant district, Assistant Attorney General in charge of the Westchester regional office. And then as the Director of Legal Affairs for the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation, she developed one of the first diversity training apps call diversity DNA. In 2021. As participant in the Westchester County’s launch 1000 accelerator program, she found it ulu story, a SaaS b2b tech platform to help all users fine craft and share their stories to create trust, empathy and inclusion across barriers. Sue mentor is the chief experience officer at loose story leading holistic customer and employee experience user experiences. Sue has more than 20 years of experience building inclusive employee cultures in biotech, financial technology, and hospitality organization. Sue has over 10 years leading and innovating dei programs and partnerships for a diverse range of organizations, including Morgan Stanley, and MasterCard. Welcome, Sue. And Deb, how are both of you doing today?

Great. Thank you for having us, Michelle,
you very very welcome.

Beforewe get started, I want to share some of the responses to the poll question which was when measuring inclusion in your organization? Which of these factors do you assess? And we found belonging and diversity? Were the top two the things that factors that people assess. And I am really excited for us to dig into your, your your conference, I mean into your topic, rather, during the summit, and we can see what else we find out from both of you at the work you’re doing at Lulu story. So I want to first start with Deb, great career now. Now entrepreneur, how did you get started with Lulu story?

I’m going to take you back 60 years, but I’ll make it really short. When I was five years old, and we’re living in Oakland, California, my mother got a job over in Ghana, West Africa. And so she took me and my sister were five and six. Over over to Ghana, where there was an enormous, multicultural community, Kwame Nkrumah had brought in a lot of people. And my mother went off to work. But there I was a little five year old saying how do I make friends with people? How do I? How do I get people to like me? How do I how do I get people to take care of me? How do I operate in this place where all the rules are different. And I was incredibly fortunate to find the gift of storytelling, of telling true stories to people not knowing the science behind it at that point. But as I went through my various careers, what I found in common with each of them being a lawyer being a mediator being a workplace trainer, head of HR, I realized that it was all about storytelling, and how did I get people to bring their stories to the table in a way that would effect connection. So in 2020, when COVID came upon us, that was an opportunity to put my ideas into practice in a much more scalable fashion. I said it’s very straightforward. It’s very simple. Here’s this tool that we know can create trust across an enormous range of barriers and cultures and issues. So why not bring it to as many people as we can. I love it. I love it.

Thank you. Thank you for that. I want to I always try to frame things before we get into a conversation. So we all understand what the definitions and terminology we’re focused on. And we’re going to discuss. And so I want to first ask, how are you defining inclusion? So we’re all on the same page with that. And we understand where, where we’re, we’re. So we’re all on the same discussion with that framework. So what how do you define inclusion?

I’m going to bounce that over to Sue, because she can say it even better than I can. There you go.

Thank you, Deb. I don’t know if it’s better, just had, I think, a little bit more practice. Hello, everyone. My name is Sue mentor. And my background is in diversity, equity and inclusion, as you’ve heard in my bio, so I’ve just said it a lot more. I think we all practice it. And we just haven’t defined it. Andreas Tapia has this great simple definition that I love quoting. And it’s diversity is the mix and inclusion is making the mix work. And for us, inclusion is providing everyone recognition and value for their differences are what I love to call their superpower. I think that a lot of times we are so focused on differences. And we need to kind of flip that as a positive as something that we all possess as a superpower as something that we really possess. And we can really kind of develop amongst ourselves. But in my experience in DNI, our primary goal is to really create empathy and trust, really, that’s really at the heart of inclusion. And that’s what we’re focused on a love story is how do we really create inclusion is creating a safe place where we can develop that empathy and trust amongst each other. It’s not just about can I trust you with my deep, darkest secrets, is can I trust you or my environment where I can be my complete self, who whoever that person is, whether I practice different religions, or where or I speak different languages, that I feel trust in the people around me and the environment that I will be valued and recognized for the differences that I bring. And that is the way we define inclusion at Olin story.

Thank you for that. I

always like to, like I said, free because everybody has their own definition and take on things. So now that we have a foundation of how we’re utilizing defining inclusion for this conversation. I want to ask, what are some of your measurement mechanisms when it comes to inclusion.

So we have a number of different ways of developing metrics. And we specifically wanted to develop metrics when we develop those story to allow employers to look at what the ROI is to look at is this really working? We know that an enormous number of of culture development programs, they don’t work. And we wanted to be able to say here with inclusion, which is particularly difficult to measure, in some ways diversity, you get the demographics, and you can see, you know, the hiring and the and the promotions and the salaries, but with inclusion is much more subjective. And so we’ve approached it both subjectively and objectively. That is, we use a subjective measurement. With pre and post workshop, or, or use of our platform we, we measure, a sense of trust and interpersonal connection, there’s actually been a lot of work done over the years, designed to measure specifically that. So we can see individually or as a group, how, how the storytelling how the workshop is actually changing people’s perspectives, and how it is changing their level of trust in other people and people’s level of trust in them. So that’s the the subject of which we also follow up with personal interviews and focus group interviews. We want to know if it’s sustainable, does it keep going or is it just, you know, a one day after the after the workshop? You know, does it vanish? It doesn’t, I can tell you that the the objective piece which we’re really I’m beginning to embrace, both are valid. But the objective piece, We’re looking now at the utility of machine learning and artificial intelligence to measure several things, but it is the physiological processes that go on when people tell their stories and listen to stories. So one of the powers of the storytelling program that we provide is that particular format, the the dramatic arc 30,000 years of practice, and about 20 years of neuroscience tell us that three things happen when I tell you a story, at least three things. You, your brain starts releasing oxytocin and dopamine, and cortisol, which create a sense of trust and empathy and a sense of connection. Your brain starts engaging in neural coupling, your brains get married, in fact, that your brainwaves start matching with the storytellers brainwaves. So you’re actually feeling what that storyteller is, is feeling. And third, we know that our story, our hearts begin to beat in unison with one another. And these three things create this powerful sense of trust, both in the the listener, and in the storyteller. So more and more technology is available to allow us to measure that very discreetly protecting the privacy measures the concerns of the people involved. 30% of people have a have a smartwatch these days. And if somebody’s wearing a smartwatch, we can actually, with technology, we can measure their physiological processes, which then get fed into, you know, an algorithm so we can track how what their status is at the beginning, what’s changes, as they’re listening to the story or telling the story? And then how is it by the ends? So it’s a really fascinating, high tech way of driving that data. Thank you,
thank you for for going in deep, it’s never an easy answer. Because inclusion, like you said, it’s difficult to measure, but you bought up smart watches in in utilizing devices like that. And so are there any privacy concerns when looking at inclusion and, and collecting data to measure it?

Listen, as a lawyer, there’s always privacy concerns. And everything you touch, if you just blink, Google is watching it. So we are very concerned with protecting people’s privacy. And we make sure that the software that we use, has those privacy concerns the anonymization built in. And we we are contracting with a cybersecurity firm to make sure that things are working properly. In fact, I just checked into Fast Company this morning and saw on their website that there was a cyber hack. So the whole site fest company is shut down for the name. So we know that that’s out there. And we’re always there to protect our users. That’s foremost, because when people share stories, often it is it personal things, it may be something very small, like a story about when you first discovered Santa Claus is real. And for those who don’t agree with me, that’s okay too. Like can be a small story, it can be a much more complicated story than that it can be when I stood up for somebody, how I responded to a particular comment. You know, what did I do with this particular boss? So those, you know, we want to share with discernments. And our platform makes sure that when we share our stories on the in the virtual rooms that we provide, that those are protected, only identified people can access those. And so you share only with the people that you want, only at the times that you want. And that information is always protected under the various than the we know laws don’t necessarily make something not happen. But we try to go above and beyond those protections that are required.
I appreciate being in the data analytic space, I definitely definitely HR tech space definitely agree with you, we take as many precautions and then some to protect users and their data and their privacy, because that is a huge concern for us on a personal level and then as well as to our users. We, we, we so it is it is imperative for us. So I absolutely understand that. I want to go over to wide. I want to I want to hit two things before we wrap up. Why can’t it be difficult to measure? Inclusion? And I know, I know, you went into it a bit. But I want us to think it and utilize the storytelling, even on that level of, of bipoc, Black indigenous people of color, even the stories we tell sometimes and trying to protect ourselves, do we think Do you see that as a boundary? Or what I want to say? We may not necessarily tell the full story. And so what what other barriers? Do you see that that storytelling may have? If if we’re like these try to create safe spaces, but people think, Oh, if it’s a safe space, I can say exactly what’s on my mind. But that’s not really a safe space. So in that thought process, how do we still utilize storytelling and and trying to make it as beneficial. But understanding that sometimes bipoc Just Just understand for self protection, they may not say it. So how is low trying to address some of that understanding psychological safety?
You know, that’s such a wonderful question. I met recently with Ruth rasp blonde who wrote this book single handedly. And she had she was born with the limb difference. And so for her until she was in her 40s, she continued to hide that limb difference. And so she’s now very focused on the concept of unhiding. We all have something to hide many things that we hide at different times. I don’t tell my daughter what I did in college, I hope she’s not watching this. But I might tell friends, and the fact is we pick and choose when to share certain things about ourselves. And we are very aware of that in how we bring storytelling to the workplace. We want to make sure that people do have a sense of safety and security. One of the things that we do is actually provide a decision tree, how do you choose your story? Who’s the audience? What message do I want to get across? What’s my purpose? And do I feel safe here. So if it comes down to I don’t feel safe, we help you find another story. You know, there’s not one single story that has to be told. So we we take measures to help people learn how to choose which story to use, that they feel comfortable with. One of the other things that I think that storytelling does is when you start out with small stories, little stories, you create that baseline sense of trust. Think about you know, when you’re developing any relationship, you reveal something small first, and then more and more and more and more. So I would never go into an organization and say, we now have to reveal something deeply personal about ourselves. And we would never require anybody to do that. What we do want to provide is with that burgeoning sense of trust, there’s two different kinds of trusts. One is are we trusting people like my niece when she was a little girl she would take cookies from anyone should very trusting my daughter not at all. At the same time is the other person trustworthy. And trustworthiness is a different it’s related but a slightly different concept. Because Is this person going to have my back? It can also be consistency. You know, we can predict how certain people will act. That doesn’t necessarily make them somebody I would confide. But if I’m beginning to find them trustworthy, that they’ll have my back or at least listen, and take my perspective. That’s a critical piece. And we focus on perspective shifting, and value. explanation, not value alignment in the sense that everybody thinks the same way. Because we know culturally, and experientially, people fall along all kinds of different dimensions. So we’re not looking to have one mindset, it is Wow, other people. That’s how somebody else perceives it. And the act of storytelling creates that much deeper connection, which overcomes what we would call fundamental attribution bias, which is that we tend to overestimate other people’s fault and underestimate our own. And so when we can begin to get past that, by developing the trust, then we have that much greater opportunity for people to feel like they truly are included. And that they are able to be authentic, as they choose to be authentic.

Yes, thank you. I am thrilled to have you both on today. And I just want to be sure if we have questions from the audience, be sure to drop them in. I think we’ll have maybe enough time for one question. But I want to ask this because we are talking about data. How does Oulu story leverage data to help companies become inclusive exclusive.

And that one, I’m going to bounce over to Sue because she has had an this is why we love Sue, and why? Why we’re teammates, she has that very rich experience and how to use that data. Okay.

So I think currently in organizations, we use what’s available, it’s the demographics, it’s the nutrition, it’s the promotion, it’s all numbers. And like, to Deb’s point, a, what we’re trying to measure here is something that’s very subjective. And I think that what we try to do in, you know, the HR the DNI space is to take what’s avail the information that’s available to us, and find the gaps and find the opportunities. But those are just numbers, and they don’t tell us how people feel. They don’t tell us if they feel that sense of belonging or value, or trust. And that’s really what’s important here. And that’s really at the core of the great Rise Nation is that a lot of people don’t feel that sense of value. So that’s what we need to know, as DNI and HR practitioners is, do people feel that sense of value and recognition, and that is what we can provide with the data, that we provide our own story. I know that that’s something that we always want to hear more about. And we hear it just kind of anecdotally, through different conversations. But if we can create that as a, as another piece of data, I think we can really do great things in organizations.

Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you, Bo. I want to ask this one final question, which is how can people connect with with with you and learn more about Luke’s story?

I’ll put that in the chat if you want to speak to it.
I think I think, Michelle, you have both of our LinkedIn profiles. And you can also email us directly at info at ou story.com.

Absolutely, my team is will drop in the, your your LinkedIn profiles as well. So we got you covered. So don’t don’t feel stressed about that. I really want to say thank you for both of you taking out the time today to come join us. And good luck with a little story. So something I forgot. I don’t think when I mentioned this, I put it in the chat was that Deb has previous role before she left corporate was the Chief Human Resource Officer. So she has not so imagine you you’re a CRO is also a lawyer. I don’t know if I feel good or bad, but but take it taking that into account our legal expertise, being in charge of our organizations in Employees and understanding legal aspects, but also the human aspects. Haven’t already developed a DI Focus app and now doing it on her own a man 40 years of this, right? So imagine what an Airbus like. So you’re not the only one. I had another speaker yesterday who retired to start her own business. So, so you’re gonna see a lot of Boomers and Gen X was like, no, no, I got this idea. And I’m gonna work on it right now. And I’m gonna build this business. So I want to say kudos, and good luck, because I love the work. You’re doing your story.

Thank you. We love the work that you’re doing. You love it. So thank you so much for having us on. We’re really, really thrilled to connect with you all. Thank you. Thank
you so much, everybody.

Let us know what you think about dev ensues conversation we just had we’re going to be dropping in a link there it is for you to provide feedback for us and for their talk because, you know, again, it is only a short 3025 minute chat. So thank you both.