Michele: 

Welcome, everybody. This is Michele Heyward. I am here with one of my good friends actually, we met over two years ago we both grew up in in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Today we are talking about why economic equity is social justice. So I have with me, David Hopkins, who is the CEO of the CEO, and the President of the Urban League of greater Hartford, Connecticut. I don’t want to try to get that confused. And David has a great career path. So an experience I just want to talk about that a bit. He was the CEO of a community health center in Pittsburgh. He also operated at independent community redevelopment consultancy and and prior to that, this is when I met him, he had a 10 year career with something and then he was a VP at He did all of that he loved what he did. And I was like, Dude, what do you do? And he told me one day because I don’t know what to do. You’re in baking, right? But outside of that I’m here in South Carolina, but David actually earned his bachelor’s degree from Guilford College, which is, which is in Greensboro, North Carolina. So he’s not a southerner, but he understands the southern nest from from going to college here. And he also has an MBA from Wharton Business School at the University of Pennsylvania. But what I really love about David, besides all of that, besides him being a great person, candidate at Point Park University, where his research area focuses on guess what hiring, retention and promotion of African American males to senior management positions. Sounds kind of familiar, right. So David, it is great to see you. Great to have you on because, as always I know who you are we work together national by APA back in the day. But this topic is really important in so many different levels. So imma let you just tell anything I left out of your bio that you want to let us know.

David:

Thank you, Michelle, it’s so good to be here. Thank you for having me, as your viewers probably know that Michelle has a very convincing and compelling way of inviting you to do something. So you, you already know that the answer is going to be yes, you just got to figure out what you’re going to be doing. But you know that it’s always something to strengthen and improve culture, society, and an opportunity for people and so I’m grateful for the opportunity to be a part of what you’re doing here with positive hire. And it’s funny too, as you as you’ve mentioned, that this this, this, this work that you’re in kind of brought us full circle back again together because we work together cut back some 10 years ago with National Black MBA Association and we share a number of common interests and goals and and, and so it’s neat to be here and be a part of this conversation today.

Michele: 

Right. Okay, so now you’re ready to urban Lee come coming in with all of this experience right? corporate because even before PNC you are what Capital One. So you have this huge financial background you did your own business. Yeah.

David: 

Yeah, so so what’s interesting is I think, and this probably just kind of jumps right into our conversation though, but I think I started on a career path that was going to check a number of boxes that I thought would be check for a person with a bachelor’s degree in an MBA and and so on. that path, did check some boxes and they put me on a career that put me into banking and put me into spaces. It was funny. My wife and I were watching a movie last night, we watched the movie Philadelphia, which was from I think, the early 90s or something like that. And we were watching it. And just marvel at like, this is a movie, like the cars and the suits and overcoats and the briefcase like that was really what how people rolled back in that time. It wasn’t restaged, and reset and costume design and everything for for that era. And that’s kind of the era that I came into, came out of college and into and so I had this aspiration of being part of this corporate culture that for whatever reason always felt like a oval peg trying to fit into a circle hole. And because there were elements of it that I thought fit, you know, I’m not you know, an entrepreneur, the guy who wants to walk around and flip flops. You know, head on backwards and making making money moves over, you know, some, some device meetings. And, and I’m not, you know, really a hard labor or blue collar type guy, I don’t have a whole lot of skills with my hands and such and so the corporate space is something that that I think fit me. But for whatever reason, it was still just not quite, the suit just kind of didn’t always fit. So I always wrestle with what it was about my approach and desires to be in this space and what the space you know, welcomed or offered to me and, and there was this constant tension within that and even after changing my MBA and going into, you know, what would seem to be really opportunistic space, as you mentioned when, after going through a classic, executive management development program, following your business school experience more than to a corporate job. You know, I landed in community development banking, which was something that I found to be as you said, the perfect job because I was able to be a banker and work almost always with people of color communities of color. And, and so the products we were serving and delivering and the people we were serving were people who looked like me and had experiences that I had when I grew up in the projects of East Baltimore. So that job I thought was it couldn’t get any better than that, but the corporate elements of it still created points of tension where they were byesies to that spa or opportunities for whether it was promotion for others or you know, my own career path feeling like there was limitations there. And, and then there was also like, persistent
target of
And I don’t want to stay. I think, this consistent target that I felt that I was in our microscope and, you know, my my positives were not highlighted as much. And my shortcomings were much more you know, magnified and others and I couldn’t quite figure it until one day. You know, I heard great philosopher that all of us have quoted at some point in our lives Chris Rock, in one of his, one of his stand up comedian, free snows said, I want the right. Make a bad movie, right? I want to be able to make a bad movie and still be a superstar. Like, you know, so many other white characters and I think, are actors and entertainers and I think that was the thing that kind of blew the light over for me to say, Yeah, I think that’s exactly what it is. You know, when you’re in this corporate space, particularly when you find your way to executive levels. You don’t feel like you have the right to make a bad decision or to make a bad move or to make a bad deal. It becomes, you know, ultimately fatal for you in many respects, and I looked around and many of my peers and a lot of them had either found their way to settling into a job or role that was far less than their capabilities. Or they were relegated to entrepreneurship, if you will, or they went into the nonprofit sector, or something to that effect where they settled, for lack of a better word, they were still doing well and still making, you know, impacts but it was something about them as well as it was for me, that said that, you know, this corporate space is not welcoming and it’s not a place where we can thrive and continue. And so, when I started doing my doctoral studies and was speaking on what it was I wanted to,
to do my research and another
kind of aha moment. came to me that many of the people that I met were my peers in corporate America were similar in personality type. They were variations of it. But essentially my point came to this. And hopefully your viewers can allow me this license. But the way it landed with me was the most domesticated of us, you know, found our way through the system, we manage the gauntlet. And those who were my peers when I was in elementary school who were far more dynamic, and abrasive and charismatic, and flamboyant. And up and self assured, those those guys didn’t make didn’t make it through the gauntlet. They are the ones who are kind of, you know, sent to the office identified as troublemakers and and and you and I would sit in, you know corner and watch them you know demonstrate or what have you watch them be criminalized or villainize or what have you, and then I would just kind of keep walking, you know, down my path and so I call it a gauntlet and in my studies I discovered this researcher named Yuri bronfenbrenner. Who created this ecological systems theory which looks at that exact thing as a socialization process that says that within your family, there is a ways that we are socialized and then when you go from your family goes to the most immediate experience the microsystem which is these, these groups of systems, your peers and friends, church, media systems, or services that are at the gym have access to and the degree to which those things aren’t a disposal and that you have access to them and that you can utilize them and deploy them that shapes in another way. And then it goes out to another level of robot becomes the mezzo system, which is the kind of transitioning of how you know other other parties collaborate or or coordinate and often even advocate for you to have access to the next level of things. And that is the actual system and ultimately, it gets out to these this macro system of ideals and ideologies and these and then at that level, is where you ultimately have made it through this gauntlet of, of barriers and challenges. And once you get to the to the end goal, now you have This, you’ve been accepted, if you will, and everybody can’t make it through all those levels we often, you know, I had a guy son who played basketball and he often talked about how he couldn’t. He was afraid that he couldn’t, you know, pass do well on the standardized test. And, and you know that that’s part of the process right before the NBA started expanding into this. g League, I think is called now and they have another model. You had to go through through college in order to get to the NBA, but she knew that in college, we’re not all the best basketball players. Some of those guys were still playing on the blacktop or Rucker park or wherever. The dome in Baltimore, you know, they were they were they’re playing somewhere on a blacktop and not at the highest level, if you will. And there’s been so there’s this kind of, weeding out that occurs.
And then the, you know, recognizing that,
that those experiences can also come with some levels of baggage. And so part of the discovery too, and some of my research is then why do so many professionals of color, gravitate to human resources, route roles and responsibilities or, you know, community development type roles and responsibilities, because we come from a place that we saw people get kicked out of systems and dropped off along the way in the process. And we want to try to somehow be able to advocate for those type of people or champion, you know, for people who, who we know have some of the same aspirations that we have. And, and, and, and we have a level of empathy for that. And it’s built in us through this ecological system. And so now, you have a system that kicks out if you will, some of the more you know. dynamic and rambling And, you know us, and we have these people who are more cooperative and collaborative as such, but then we’re competing against other groups, particularly, let’s say that Whoa, wow, racial groups like white, our white counterparts, in the very opposite occurs the people who are more, you know, dynamic and demonstrative and whatever, they get promoted for being that thing. And that becomes our, our, our, our peer group, but also our competition for opportunities. And so, we have these different personality types being promoted and presented with opportunities that if you will, executive levels, and then when we get there, the the layered on part of my research is mass laws. hierarchical theory which says that we go through these these stages or layers of security when it was you know, we get secure housing Food and so forth and we go all the way and then the final stage and as laws hierarchy is self actualization, we call it in Kwanzaa. You know, who’s talking Leah, right? So it’s this place where we get to name ourselves and call for ourselves before we realize who we are. And so you make it through this system, you realize all the things you sacrifice all the things you compromise or the things you you’ve, you’ve kind of pursued and the people who fell off along the way and get to this place, we finally get to the place where you want to claim yourself a reclaim yourself, if you will. You have the title, you have the money, you had the power, so to speak, but then when you reclaim yourself as a person of color, somehow, the system says, No, no, no, no. You know, you don’t get the call that shot. And then all of a sudden we find ourselves kind of displaced again, I think that’s one of the challenges that comes with this whole thing when we talk about you know, chris chris rocks, quote, in the fact that social justice and economic justice it’s about the money at hand or the opportunities at hand that ultimately get compromised for us along our way, and then how we get kicked out of systems to make us really realize the true value of what we’ve accomplished. I need the
direction. I want to go from there.

Michele: 

I want to go back to something that you said we are in HR and community development. Not in other sector of this. What is the importance of us being other areas? Like really digging into that now, right. So let’s let’s dive into if we’re in the tech space, developing technology, and we’re in the medical space developing new cars right now we’re in a pandemic, right? you’re developing cures, and different medic medicines are This little ad are good for black and brown. What is the impact? Really? on the social economic side?

David: 

Yep, that’s a great question. I think the impact is being able to develop models or control decisions or control product products, product development and models and, and being able to participate in the economy at the highest level. So in other words, something as simple as this is probably not a good example. But it’s one thing that just always sticks with me. I was playing golf. Soon, somewhere around May the end of May, just after kind of country reopened, right and just before Yeah, right around May or June. And I hadn’t played golf for some time. So I was playing with a group of guys And we got to the green and went to put in the hole. And so I went to pull the flag out because when you’re putting, you know, you want to pin the flag in the hole to be out so the ball can kind of go directly in. And I grabbed it. And one of the guys said to me, man, you’re not supposed to grab the pole. And I was like, we take the flag out like that. That’s the way you mean house, you take the flag out, there was this little, little hook at the bottom of the flag that you’d stick a club on, you pick it up, and you stick a commoner and lift it up. And I was like, Oh, that’s neat. How long has that been around? I was like, well, because of COVID is this created this kind of contraption have a little hook at the bottom of the thing? And I was like, oh, things are that and how do you know people are probably good to be able to create something that’s more of a new nuance or a new thing to be added to something that people do every day now, but you don’t need to be created. I think that when we’re excluded from those jobs where we control Again budgets or we control even lines of businesses, the way it was called, you know, may still be referred to you have to run a line of business. Because ultimately you control a profit center and we control a profit center, then you have more influence and more say, and it makes a difference. So, you know, when you when when we talk about minorities and mentoring up and coming or, you know, helping people transition in whatever way they often say that you need a minority of personal color, helping you and a white majority if you will, one because the person of color can usually empathize with you. They may be able to make help you with your networks, but more times than not they can’t help you get more money or get hired because they’re not controlling the hiring decision. That’s usually controlled by someone who runs a profit profit center or business In a lot of business, that person is usually controlling the, the, the, the decision. And so the the model is if you have a white person, a few ruling your network, that person can help you get more money or get hired or get promoted. The black person can only help you complain, so to speak. And so that’s part of the difference.

Michele: 

I absolutely agree is is the power dynamics are really, really important. Which is one reason why I um, I’m like you I’m focused on the executive level, where there is the ability to drive the change from the top down. But again, like I said, you still have to have white counterpart who are on board with this change as well. And so that, that has to be across the top down and across the organization as well.

David: 

Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
And then, you know, you know, one of the shifts in this and I was going to also was around this, you know, equity piece and the social equity, social justice pieces that, you know, in my role now as president and CEO of the Urban League, in this time, where you see a number of people facing their own ethical, if you will, perhaps moral challenges, personally and professionally in Urban League is being contacted by a number of organizations that say, hey, how can we help? What can we do to help in your cause for addressing you know, police brutality or social and justices or or a racial equity? And more times than not that inquiry is really people saying, you know, how can we send our employees over to volunteer to help you paint the street, black lives matter in the street? My responses, you can help us by assessing your own recruiting, hiring, retention and promotion and pay equity strategies, and that’s where the piece comes in. And that’s where we want to try to hopefully play a better place. play more relevant role. And let me say, we can help you with that. We don’t really need you to come and volunteer to help our kids, you know, get, get ready for their college tours, so to speak, or whatever it is, those things are helpful. Don’t get me wrong, those things are valuable. And we appreciate the generosity that people come with us to us with money and such. But most corporations, you know, the challenge is to say that you can impact social injustice by addressing economic equity, and that’s by these again, recruiting, hiring and retention promotion and pay practices.

Michele: 

I absolutely agree. Whenever I thought the organization, I had a great
morning and it was it was focus around companies that sell fake. This particular company did make an external announcement about what they like to do internally, what we, what we don’t tell the world. We have our own work internally. And, and they understood, but they also I explained, I say, Well, some people are looking to see what are you doing to them looking for some of that now, to this day, this is what you’re doing externally internally, because we are looking to see what that is. So as I said, it’s a pro and a con, but you have to do the internal work. And again, and so, as you’re talking about, hey, you could donate for the college tuition, what is your plan? And oftentimes, you know, I’ve been part of a national vacuum inside of like Computer Society with an engineer. And you always see companies focus on entry level, but have no plan on how they’re going to retain that talent. And that’s truly key. And it’s like, they’ll rather pay hundreds of thousand dollars to keep bringing an entry level saying, hey, you don’t have an inclusion problem, we don’t have a culture issue, as opposed to spending the time, effort and investment in creating a better culture. That way you retain that talent, actually get more out of your investment over the long term because to work, especially technical talent, technical talent with an MBA you have lost so much fundamentally. And a lot of that goes back to what how org. Right. and the value or lack of value being seen in like the ground, being in the organizations, additional hoops, you have to you have to do so when I work with specifically underrepresented women. I explained to them, you’re going to be assessed On proof that you can do the work not on the potential I said so what is that? And remember I work with analytical people. And so we are looking at instead of I have one client and she does great work with the processes here like oh, I was able to set up the system being down eight hours when you lose a million it was out for two hours I say the company six six hours said no you think the company’s $750,000
I say and she was like, What? Wait, I did. And so
what is that economics? What is it revenue? What’s the profit? We literally have to talk in those numbers some sometimes because because the research is already there how diversity among your your management and your bring about more people still don’t want to hire three goes back to you literally internal to organizations having to to your own culture changes Though this matter, and it’s literally, like you said from the top, and that’s where the change has to start.

David: 

Yeah, I think so too. I tend to make this point also, though, that many of the corporations that are in existence now have crossed the 100 year mark, they’ve been around for 100 years or so. And I say to those corporations or to, you know, colleagues that fall to the purposes, they proven or demonstrated or had experiences, that they could be successful, very successful without being a diverse organization, shamefully. So of course, but but, but it’s it’s hard to make the case other than from research that, that the company can do better, even better if they were more diverse. And so that means that the company then has to be more intentional. And that takes the company to this zero sum game challenge that most people Particularly in power, travelers power are not equipped to handle and that is to say that, okay, so if it’s 100 I gotta give 30 or 40 in order for, for you to win or for you to participate and be a part of it, and many people aren’t ready to sign up for that. And unfortunately, that’s part of where the equity comes in. And then the then the the protests and the rallies and the crowd cries for, you know why people of color and women are paid at 30 to you know, 25 to 30% 20 to 30 cent discount to what white males pay. Because as that that’s an inequitable proposition, and you know, people aren’t willing to accept that or change from it. And that’s what we had to keep pushing the envelope on. You know, I, I was reflecting on, john congressman john lewis is service and think was Mitch McConnell, who was making some kind of some commentary whereas he was being recognized in DC. And Mitch McConnell, and we all have done this, right. I mean, it just happens. Mitch McConnell start talking about his humble beginnings, and how he started off, you know, preaching to the chickens. And parents were sharecroppers and oh, that’s, that’s awful. That is awful. That’s economic injustice. Have you ever seen it before? And yet, we tend to kind of use it somehow, or our society has been built that black people have to use it as a badge of honor. Even me, I mentioned that I grew up in projects in East Baltimore, right. So that’s my badge of honor but that is offered as an awful way to start life and have to come from and too many times we treated as part of this kind of thing to be proud of it. And hopefully follow the adjustments I’m trying to create that that is a representation of the structural social injustice, that translates to economic inequity. And so you look at the things that like Chris Rock said, I’m a rich celebrity, and my neighbor is a doctor. I know what I do to make big money, and I look around and, you know, like, my neighbors, like, what do you what do they miss the beginning that they started with, versus that which we started with? And how do you have the fight to create the level of equity and understand that this these social dynamics do translate into economic issues? You know, you hear people say even about the George Floyd and some dead or whatever, I’d say, you know, we don’t need to politicize this. No, it’s very much political is very much economic. You know, these things are all All inherent in these injustices I think they carry over into other areas.

Michele: 

I absolutely agree. David, we could talk about this all day. We we live it, but we also teach it and and really help organizations move forward to making those changes. If when you’re talking to companies like what are the what, just to wrap up, I want to go into what are three things, three actions they can take right now to really change the dynamics of what we’ve seen as far as economic equality. With it, and specifically within your organization. I don’t go out inside your organization. What are three things they need, like that actionable they can do right now?

David: 

Yeah, yeah. But I think it’s part of a couple of things. You know, these these things, affinity groups, the args that you hear about the corporations It’s a solution that many companies have proposed and put into play and they’ve been around for, you know, 20 years plus, but even today, you know, I know you have a wide audience and this is probably more public so it’s not bad but ESPN here in Connecticut, they, they were in the New York Times, and they had some high profile employees like like Steven Naismith, speaking to the challenges that the black employees have with being promoted, they get hired, and they get excited to work for ESPN and ESPN, you know, kind of like a Texas box. And the end the args aren’t able to move the dial. And so you know, that aren’t very effective, they might be effective. Again, connecting you to a mentor, connecting you to a job opportunity, getting you ready for that job opportunity. And then still, the decision gets made in another direction and you get hit with some bogus explanation like, you know, you didn’t have enough sales experience for the job. Didn’t even You know, call for. And so I think internally, those pseudo you know, structures that are built to try to help support or improve the programs or improve the practices, they have to be, you know, kind of re evaluated and assessed and perhaps even turned into something else. Right. I think that’s one thing, I think a level of, and and including, if you will, a third party, I think the Urban League, what we’ve been doing and trying to do is insert ourselves into these processes to some degree so that we can help the employees as well as the employer, close these gaps and and address some of the inherent energy because if a company recognizes or acknowledge that they aren’t good at something, or they know that they just have implicit bias and they can honestly make a genuine decision on who to promote and and who to hire who deserves more pay, then somebody else needs to come in and help that decision. And even the best intended HR people know they get paid by the company. So they’re not willing to go but so far with it, and you have people of color, at points of desperation, again, you read the ESPN article, and you hear them talking about people leaving the company, because they just don’t feel like they got an opportunity and even senior members, people who have a tissue level telling other people just go ahead and leave because that’s not gonna happen. That’s not the way the corporation’s are gonna win. Like you said, You can’t for go, empowering your employees just because of some of these historical practices. I think the last thing is, we often see that and this is how it was for me and a couple of the companies that work for this the sink, the executive, the senior, most people, the people in the C suite, many of them get it and maybe it’s because they you know reach the highest level they buy into it? Well, maybe because they removed from the hands on, you know, work of the business, but they’re all in and then the lower you follow the organizational leadership, the less people are willing to make those kinds of moves. So it’s the kind of thing where, you know, I remember this kind of stories tell us that people say, you know, deep do you do you think public schools are great? Yeah. I think the good thing about public schools you send your kids to public school. No, I wouldn’t do something like that. Right, though. It’s like they think iversity is right, absolutely. These people call it direct management. No, I don’t. So I think that happens more often lower though, when you’re getting so stinker managers, middle managers, supervisors, it somehow has to get trickle down to them, and in many cases, it has to be legislated as well. about putting into the performance reviews. But then we don’t know if that really works. We don’t know how much they really do hold people accountable. But in some way it has to get to the lower level of management.

Michele: 

Absolutely, absolutely agree is that is that black women middle management,
as well as people. So and then you have Native American women, and then you have Latina equal all have equal heydo. And so this not 20 to 30% is even worse than that 54% depending what race you are for women. So those are definitely great, actionable steps. So if you’re listening, you’re watching the replay or live now you
know where things should be
internal to your organization. David, thank
you so much for joining me. I really enjoyed having you on a day we have.
I’m loving what you’re working on because we’re working on the same thing. So elaborate some more on some some things? Absolutely. So be sure you connect with David here on LinkedIn. He would love to connect with you just send them a message say hey, I saw your LinkedIn live,
he’ll know because it’s only
but it’s great to see you and talk to everybody. Have a great week and I will talk to you later. Bye