Michele:

Welcome, everybody to career strategy Saturday, I’m Michele Heyward. And with me, we have my friend and colleague, Erin Browder. And all career strategy Saturdays, we really focus on helping women of color STEM professionals get their career questions answered. Oftentimes, I hear and Erin does two other women, some of whom are still because Erin is in Cal California. The struggles they’re having in corporate America, but also some questions they have that they haven’t been able to get answers to. So we wanted to come on and give an opportunity for women of color STEM professionals to ask their questions, to get answers so that they can move forward in their careers. I know weekdays can be a bit of a struggle. So we thought we would try a few sessions of career strategy Saturday’s to see if you have time then to engage. And even if guess what you don’t we still give you an opportunity to submit questions that we can answer live for you. And you can catch on the replay. So Eric, why don’t you tell everybody a bit about yourself?

Erin:

Perfect. So my name is Erin Browder. I’m very happy to be here. Thanks for the invitation, Michelle, I work as a leadership and organizational development consultant. And I have about over 10 years working in human serving organizations. So the majority of my work has been centered in education, nonprofit leadership. As a consultant, I’ve worked with healthcare systems and government agencies, basically people serving people, where I come in on and as Michelle shared, I’m based in Los Angeles, but I do work across the country, depending where some of my contracts are, and just some of my networks. I come into career strategy from a different lens. As a nonprofit leader, I found myself often working for under grants, right, so federal grants that have a timeline, where, you know, I knew my time was that after one year after three years, and so I frequently found myself looking for positions. And, you know, maybe after the first or second, I realized that this wasn’t so much of a deficit, you know, we talked to a lot of people that are wed to security. And, you know, once you get a career in a career, you die in that career, and so they couldn’t make sense of how I was going from one position to another, without really losing my footing, I was able to kind of master a strategy, so that, you know, even though my employment or the organization’s or the grant line or funding lines changed, I was still progressing towards my career goals, as a leader in my field. And when I transitioned to becoming a, or to become a consultant, I found that a lot of the leaders that I’ve worked with, this was an area that needed some strengthening for themselves, right, because, you know, just because they’ve been in a system for 20 years does not mean that they have to relegate their own career goals to what someone else sees for them, or what positions pop up, that they can still really be driven and have a blueprint of where it is that they want to go within a given timeline. At the same time, I met several people, and I continue to meet them that are looking for a career change, right, that enjoy what they do, but they know that this just doesn’t feel like a forever career for them or position that they’re in at that moment. And so how can they transfer their skills without sliding all the way back? Right, you know, that’s a common concern that I hear. And even as I kind of went through, you know, different application processes. I really recognize the fact of, well, I won’t say the fact but the lack of preparation, that

Michele:

we lost your sound. We don’t have your stuff.

Erin:

I’ll just speak aloud. Is this okay? Can you hear me?

Michele:

Yeah, you’re a little loud, but you can at least hear you.

Erin:

Okay. So interesting. I don’t know what’s going on here. Um, okay. Well, I’ll continue but just sharing how, you know, despite all the degrees and experience that we have, have maintaining a career strategy and updating it is something that a lot of us just weren’t prepared to Do and I have two masters, I have an undergrad I’m actually adopted my doc getting my doctorate now. And in none of my programs did I ever receive any type of career strategy or someone who can help me really personalize where I’m headed for my skill set my interests, my life experiences. And so I found myself trying to fit into like these narrow holes that other people have set for me, depending on what the job responsibility is or where the organization is. But I realized now that it is more of an exchange, and the more that I positioned myself as someone who was also a catch, not just, you know, the salary package and the benefit that it gives, it empowers me, and it gives me more assets to negotiate in the application process and looking for position.

Michele:
Gotcha. Okay. That was very, very deep, and is actually what reason why we are here because we get those questions, like you said, changing industries, and not wanting to go back to entry level, because a lot of times women, for whatever reason, want or believe they have to go to entry level when they switch industry. And that’s the furthest from the truth, because we don’t focus on the skill set in which we have gained over our time in corporate, even if it’s five years or 25 years, there is a core skill set. And entry level is not where we have to go MIT most times. Because we do know so much. We just have to frame it properly, in order to be seen as an expert, and have those transferable skills into an industry and I actually had somebody who tried to, well, no, you come in entry low, like why would I come an entry level? Okay, the only thing I don’t know is 123. And you don’t want anybody to wants that knows everything because they’re gonna get bored, and they can’t quit. And so the person looked at me, and the real issue for them was how much I cost. What was my salary, their fear was how much they would have to pay me for my expertise. So they were trying to convince me, because I wasn’t familiar with that industry, I should come in at a lower level, honey, no, that is not how this work. And so they valued what I have been, but we’re afraid of how much I will cost, salary wise. And I hear that often, too.

Erin:
Yeah, you know, you touched on a really important thing, too. And that’s why it’s really important for us to be grounded and mindful in this process of looking for positions really understanding the full context of, you know, where we’re looking at and how this position, you know, the one that we’re the most interested in fits in the scope of, you know, work of that organization. Because when we are in desperate position, places where it’s like, we just have to find a job, or are we just need to leave? Oh, you changed it? Yeah. Okay. Where we have to find a job, or we just need to quickly exit where we are, then we’re in a more reactive space. And so we can’t negotiate with the example that you just shared, we don’t really have our blinders open. So we can see all of the ways that we can, you know, really be firm, and what we’re willing our limits, what we’re willing to give, and then what we need in return. So then we make concessions, and then you accept a position that really doesn’t feel like the right one for you. But you’re in a space of like desperation, or just unknowingness. And so you kind of walk in and you listen to what someone else is telling you instead of really having a plan, right.

Michele:
Absolutely. And and it comes down to also us understanding our worth, when we understand not first what we are truly what we know, what we are expert at and those can be two different things. And our work, we then are more empowered to truly go after what we want. And truly say, You know what, no, this is not a good fit. Even if the salaries right, we think it’s a great place to work. Because we understand these things, we can make better decisions. And sometimes it’s the worst offer like you know what, this is not what I want, at all, even even going through the job search. So what I encourage women to do is really, really look at what do you know, what are you an expert in and what are you excited about? Because you know those things? Really, if it’s that one thing that excites you is truly truly important. I remember a few years ago talking to a friend And he was an executive with this financial institution. But he worked with the community. And he got a promotion. And they were moving him, he got this great promotion, he quit. He quit, because he wasn’t doing what he was passionate about. He wasn’t doing the new role, didn’t have him connecting with the community anymore. And he realized what it was within, within like six or eight months, and he quit. And he created a business where he could do what he was doing in corporate and connect with industry. And it’s interesting to see men recognize it so much sooner. And say, You know what, no, this is not it. And in when they kind of just take, roll with it, say that I’m sorry?

Erin:

No, I was just saying, Yeah, cuz we as women, we try to make everything work, right. We’re yes, that paradigm, where it’s like, if we just keep trying harder, if we just do more, you know, we add more and more to our plate. And then we assume that something is wrong with us when things aren’t kind of turning out the way that we intend them to.

Michele:
Yes, exactly. Exactly. And I would encourage more women to spend the time actually focusing on those three areas, what are you know, what’s your expert in? And what do you like doing? And you may find that what you like doing, you can’t make a living off? Right? What you love doing? So somewhere in between what you know, and what you’re an expert, and hopefully you like something in there. And you would not mind having a career from it. So one of the one of the questions I get, or not even a question was, Oh, my God, you’re an expert in this, and I see somebody in my Instagram feed. And she she posts it where somebody said in the article, she was an expert. And she was like, I don’t know. If I’m an expert, she’s like, I’m well versed. And I know so many things. Let me tell you something. Women already get harped on when we self promote. Somebody else call you expert, you don’t say it, guess what you got to do? Yes, I am the expert, as stated in whatever scientific journal that is an own that, and from their Gulf go with it. So when, when it may not be in an article, but what you will see in your emails, text messages, phone calls, visits to your cubicle, because you may not be in an office, right? What are people consistently coming to you for? What are they asking you to solve? And that is oftentimes where you find out what you’re really good at, because sometimes it’s really innate to us, and we can’t see what you’re truly good at and gifted at. And that’s how it ties into how we’re doing or excelling in our career. So sometimes you you don’t even know so as to resources, I’ll share a little bit later that women need to I highly recommend women tap into especially we’re very analytical, because we can’t see that part of ourselves. And we do a lot we give a lot. But we miss what is truly innate and gifted among us. And once you know what that is definitely go with it. Go ahead, Erin.

Erin:
Yeah, no, I would also add that sometimes we don’t value it, right. So for me, one of the things that I need is to build community. So a lot of the work I do is around workplace culture, and you know, creating effective collaboration and you know, conflict resolution, and just things that really create a positive thriving organizational culture. And I’m so I was so wrapped up in the process, or the research and the science that when I finally have some mirrors in my life, just coaches and different support people, you know, really explained like, Oh, you like to build community? I’m like, why? Like, what does that mean? Like in an organization, there’s no community, you know, like community in the sense that we often use it. And once I kind of let that sell with me, I realized that I was the one that was refusing, you know, that awareness because I hadn’t placed any value. I’m like, Well, I can’t say I’m a consultant who builds community and the truth is, yes, like in our teams, in our workplace, we want to feel that we belong, that’s all about community want to know that we have similar interests and similar goals, and we want to share our gifts. I mean, it’s all community, but it was just something that I was like, you know, how am I making money? Why do I have all these degrees? Just build some community? Yeah. And I just I needed to kind of like sit with it, and accept it. And now you know, it’s one of the significant things like if I can’t do anything, I will not accept a position, or even contract work where there’s no interest in, like building community within organizations.

Michele:
I love that. And in oftentimes women are great communicators, and we devalue that. And it’s truly important that we hold on to that. So what I say to women, because you said something about community, when it comes to being able to communicate and build community, those are truly key skills for any leader. If you cannot create community, and you cannot communicate, you cannot lead. And because women are so great at this, they, they oftentimes are some of the best leaders, where we may lag is you like you said, we don’t want to own it. And so when you say community, what I heard was, you know how to create and build up people within your team, so that your team can execute well, and you build up those people. So that even days, you’re not feeling well days that you’re not there. When you’re not available. They don’t stop, they understand why they’re there, who they’re serving. So they keep going. And let me tell you, if you’ve ever if you’re ever in corporate, every nonprofit, and you ever worked for a true leader, that one person who was really a leader, and all these other people, you’ve worked for managers, it is completely eye opening. And so it’s truly important for women, women of color, especially understand how oftentimes you have that skill set to lead, you’re not only leading in your home, your church, your nonprofit organizations, or volunteer organizations, I should say. But you can lead a corporate and seeing that and understanding that and harnessing that really, really is important, because they may not give you the leader type, they may not get give you the management title. But this is what they’ll say, Erin, you’re really good at communicating with other departments. We’re trying to pull together ABCD for the company, we’d like you to go to these other departments and convince them they should do 123. Guess why a manager’s came to you because they know how to manage stuff, but they don’t know how to lead. They don’t know how to communicate. But you do. And we’re sitting like, Oh, I got more work to do. No, you know, they just gave you the opportunity to do the meet with every other manager in that department in various departments, and to be seen and heard, as a leader in that organization. And oftentimes, we don’t harness those opportunities, and really turn them to position ourselves in a different way. So I always I love it when a manager thinks what they’re doing is really given us the grunt work. And we can flip it to where it is giving us the limelight, it is showing us as a leader, as an expert as the go to person. And when opportunities come up. You know, I remember that Erin, lady from the engineering group on the fourth floor, she did an excellent job. And I had a question a couple of months ago about some paperwork that came in. So I just called her she didn’t have the answer. But she knew who to send me to. Or she was able to break it down in a way that I understood it as an accountant. And when you understand what you truly gifted, that it positions you a completely different way.

Erin:
I would even add to that to Michelle, that that’s why the strategy work is so important. Yes, we have a strategy than you realize I’m not just doing this for the hell of it. You’re doing this because it fits in your plan. And maybe it doesn’t look like that at first. But now that you’ve done it, you can go back to your plan your goals and show how this experience is uplifting this skill set or sharpening this skill set. And even when we think about those hidden abilities as women, you know, another thing we do exceptionally well that all leaders need is influence. Yes, you have any people I help just even bring awareness to the fact that they are influential, and then how to leverage that in other situations change. Ain’t nobody more prepared for change than women are. Right? We are constantly changing. We’ve been changing since puberty and even before that, like we welcome change a lot of my work has changed management. The fact that you know, I have women leaders that doubt themselves and their ability to move groups. That is that is like unnatural for us. That’s something that we can do. Obviously there are skills and there’s ways that we all can support each other. I’m definitely not negating that. But the ability to accept and flow and adapt to Change is something that’s really inherent in our biological and, you know, psychological life experiences as women.

Michele:
I absolutely, absolutely agree. Okay, so I want to get into one of the questions we received. And it says, I applied for a row, which would have been a promotion. But I didn’t receive it. When I talked to my manager, he said, I wasn’t ready, that I needed to be more vocal. And to show my knowledge, for this for the area I apply to my issue is, whenever there’s a question, in this area, he comes to me and no one else on our team. What can I do to get the promotion the next time.
So it’s interesting that the manager knows what this this lady is good at. But for whatever reason, I’m thinking he does not see her as a leader, or being able to he’s seen her more as a resource, but not somebody who can leave. And my advice to her is you have to exhibit your leadership skills. And when he says, be more vocal, let me let me take a step back there is you have to be vocal in your workplace, you need to understand the culture of that workplace, will you get pushback when you advocate for yourself, oftentimes, what we hear is when women advocate for themselves, they get horrible pushback, when they advocate for other women, they win more. So she may have to position and partner with other women within our organization. So they’re advocating for each other and be strategic about that. Number Number two, that’s just in speaking up. But how to exhibit your leadership skills. When you’re giving tasks pull us out to to three other people in your team to meet with and to structure how that work is done. You don’t just do the work, you actually delegate it to other people, your managers, well, I wanted you to do it. Well, like, well, you want me to exhibit my leadership skills. So I’m, I’m exhibiting my leadership skills, I’d have ABCDEFG to do, I can teach them how to do it, check it to make sure it’s right, and be able to deliver it to you in a timely fashion by delegating work, because guess what, that’s what leaders do. So you have to have that strategy on how you’re going to show that you can lead. And a lot of times it is not by doing the work it is by making sure that work is done, the way that it needs to be done on time and with quality. And so we we get into that, oh, I have to get it done. No, you just have to make sure it is done. And delegating, let me tell you something, is the best is better than apple pie.

Erin:
You also want to make sure that it’s being seen and not in a like super braggy way, right. But just in a way, you know, I would even say kind of in line with what you’re at what you shared is, you know, offer to lead a project. And, you know, walk your manager through your, your process of how you’re going to execute on that. And, you know, just constantly come back to them and debrief. You know what you learned. But just really just position yourself. I liked that you mentioned your as seen as a resource. This was something I have to get out of my own self, especially in a lot of my speaking in different ways that I’ve supported organizations in the past is that I’ve always positioned the knowledge or the research or the science and then I’m just the person facilitating it. When the truth is, I’m the filter, right? I have cultural transformation experience I have, you know, I don’t know professional development and like building team capacity, like those are my experiences that I then integrate with the content and that’s how I deliver it. But when I’m constantly excuse me, I’m delivering the knowledge and I’m saying well, you know, Smith 2015 says that the doctor da than they see Smith 2015 as the expert and not me and my experience so just really leaving your stamp and again like you mentioned the why the strategy is so important, because you know where you want to go and so you can leave your stamp strategically on this word. Like what’s the way that you can do it that no one else can do it once you know like what that thing is you love for me building Community, I’m gonna find a way to build connection in executing this project that will separate me from the pack and make you know me more desirable, if the position is what I want, you know, moving forward to do that promotion opportunity.

Michele:
But I would also say I’m thinking, just even before you would have applied for the position, does your manager know where you want to go with your career, because you if, in many organizations, your manager has to buy in, and has a say in whether or not you get that role, if you’re not sharing with your manager, at least annually. And I would say do it quarterly of where you want to go. And I’d say at least do it annually, which is doing your performance review. Because that is a very particular time where you can tell most of the times whether or not they’re for you, and they may be for you leaving because they’ve seen your growth and they know you’re ready, they may not be for you leaving because they lazy as hell. And they know you, you get their work done, right. And so you need to tell them, or at least kind of figure out where it fits. And I say this, when my younger sisters, she, she did a really, really great job. And she kept trying to get promoted. And what she found out was her manager did not want her to lead and block every single one of her promotion. Because she got she made sure the work was done. Even when the manager was gone. And she was so frustrated. She was like, You know what, maybe I should just stop doing a good job. And our mom was like, Girl, no, that is not what you do. So but she was like, so it was it was telling my sister you have to go talk to other people in the organization and find a role. We’re in she or find somebody who can overpower her vote. Right? So it may have been a VP or a director that said, You know what, no, this person is getting this role. And this is why they get the role. And she was like, because she was just frustrated, because you’re seeing all these people who were not as good as her who knew lesser, being promoted, you know why the manager wanted to get rid of them, they weren’t helping her out my sister. So you he was and you can get frustrated like that, and start doing what will negatively impact you. Instead of saying, You know what this is the obstacle, let me come up with a strategy, a way to maneuver around this person, this obstacle, so I can get to where I want to be. So let’s say your manager was on board for you to have this promotion, right to go for this position. She or he, at that point should be telling you, you know, what this is where you are covered, you have all of these things right here, these 123 page you’re lacking in to get this role. So in the next three months, six months, nine months, whatever, let’s really work on that it come up with a plan, right, because it is your annual review, you should be planning ahead for the next year to get you ready for that role. And when you do that, that helps you more than you just applying when it becomes open you already prepared for and your manager has to buy in.

Erin:
Yeah, depending on your organization and kind of the promotional structures and the salary skills and all of that sometimes you can have your manager meet you in the middle. So sometimes you might without having the salary in the interim you can change your title, right but that’s still something that’s very valuable. Maybe you go from director to senior director or you know, Senior Manager to senior manager. So there’s ways of you know, negotiating and using that strategy to help you get to where you want and then having some compromise in between if you know this place is the place you want to stay at or if you know the mentorship that is coming from your manager something really important to you. You don’t want to kind of turn your back on it but then you still need a little you know, carrot for yourself a little incentive for yourself.

Michele:
Yes, okay. This is the next question and I love this question. We this is so popular okay. I have applied for a position outside of my employer for on a roll that I have been doing at my current employer but I don’t have the job title. Should I have not applied for the position? Okay, first of all, you apply for the position is too late data worry about what you did?

Erin:

Absolutely just apply.

Michele: 
So this is what what am I free? Is it I, we, she, she, like I apply for so she like, I didn’t fully for her current position. She’s like, I probably need 40% of the job. And she like she, like, I play like a mediocre white man. She was like, there’ll be no another Why have to know stuff? So she like, what are they gonna do? They’re gonna tell me no, that’s the worst thing that can happen. But what often happens is, companies don’t want to pay us more, but they want the work to be done. They don’t, they won’t give you the promotion, they want you to do your title change, because in some organizations, when they do a title change, they have to do a pay increase, they can’t get around it. So what they’ll do is they just give you the work, right? Oh, you’re the interim, and with interim, they give no pay increase, or we’re short staffed. So I’m gonna split up the work, but you get 90% of the work. The job title does not matter. The ability to be able to do that role is what matters. So if you know or feel or believe that you can do it somewhat possibly on a rainy day hopping on one foot, and your thing on here, no, apply for it. Because because the job title doesn’t matter. And other thing is job titles from employer to point in the same industry will vary. They do not know. So I have seen places where people have been a project manager like that’s all your project managers, do. You only have a budget of a million dollars. I’m like, you know, I can do it a million dollars. Not much on a capital project, right. But a project manager one has projects up to a million like Dude, seriously, what about 100 million? And they’re like, Oh, my God, we don’t have that type of budget here. And I’m like, for real? I said, maybe that’s not the role for me, because I don’t know what to do with little money. A million dollars is little money. Yeah, 100 million, oh, I got things I did. So you really need to look at, look at it, look at the roles as to what you want to do, what you know how to do what you’re expert, and again, and not be like, Oh my god, I shouldn’t know a PA, if you if you go like it, apply for. Yeah, even if you qualify.

Erin:
In your cover letter, like in all the aspects of your interview process, from your cover letter to your resume to your interview, that you are really aware of what skills you have that are in line to what they want. And then and then talk to that, despite the title. So don’t let them dismiss something like the title should never really tell the whole story. That’s where all those other pieces come in. So just make sure that you’re being really diligent, and giving the examples or, you know, the different steps you took in a process in your cover letter, or during the interview that can kind of ask you age, like some of the concerns that they might have, because you don’t carry that job title. But yeah, I would never not apply to a job because of a job title, like, apply to the job. You know, I’ve never been an executive director, but I’ve supported closely I partner with executive directors, I’ve partnered with direct, you know, like senior administrators. And so if I wanted to apply for that liberal position, I’m sure that I’m as qualified as you know, someone who might have, you know, I have different qualifications, I should say, as someone who has done that work.

Michele:

Okay. So I don’t know what they do a little money, okay. So just want to wrap up, applying for jobs. Don’t apply for a job, be the solution to the problem that an employer has hands. And that is completely is a completely different mindset. If you’re like, What the hell am I talking? What are you? What the hell are you talking about? Michelle? Okay. When you apply for a job, you are checking off what they say they need to know.

Erin: 
You’re making yourself fit into what they that

Michele: 
when an employer has an issue in their company, it issue and how they manage projects and issue on how they do injection moldings issue and how their power goes through their grid. And you say, You know what? I can fix that. You just need to understand ABC and D and every like what? So you’re not applying for the job. You’re going directly to the hiring manager and saying, I understand you have this problem. And they’re sitting like wait, what how you know that? Oh, the streets be talking right? And the same thing. But what happens is when you present yourself have as a solution. You get to write your own job description, your own job title. And they said, Well, how much are we have to pay you? And they go find the money. It because when you’re so when you’re it’s sort of like this. How many of you have ever had your car broken down? And you just need it fixed? You know, okay, I won’t get my hair done, I won’t get my nails, like you start because you have this problem. And the mechanic has said is $700 Are you like, oh, no, I’m gonna come up with it. By Friday, right? You gotta find a way to pay that bill. Because you are in so much pain, you have this. And that mechanic is taking you out of that pain. You don’t negotiate the price. You just go look for money. And that’s what organizations especially women of color, because we solve the problems, we don’t see that we solve those problems. And because we solve them, guess what happens? They’re willing to pay us but we don’t present ourselves, or we don’t see ourselves as being able to solve those problems. And changing that. I remember talking to a recruiter. And he was like, Oh, they need this, this and this. I’ve said, I’m sorry. Ask the recruiter questions. Usually they don’t know that much. This particular recruiter knew enough about the client and a project. Well, they’ve never had this as an asset Oh, well, that’s the problem. he assaulted me and I say they can’t do this job unless they know and I started telling him why he was like, Oh, wow. You said I said, but not for this price. So when they willing to pay? Call me back. But not I said he’s, and I told him ooh, I said exactly. I said, that’s a problem. I said, they’re not enough pain yet. Because we keep turning them on our lights, they aren’t willing to pay. So sometimes the pain and the problems they’re the customer, or the employer, I should say, is not enough pain, to be willing to pay. But guess what, that’ll mean, you going down to low, that don’t mean you still give it to them for a lower price for all we can give you Oh, for real, that’s too bad. When you’re able to do better, call me back, I might be available. And guess what? I might not? Let me know.

Erin:

Well, we need to always do our research to right, like, what’s market price, or what’s the, you know, salaries going and other positions. I always recommend having like multiple options in front of you. Even if you’re not ready to leave your company and stuff. There’s still like competence that we get from knowing, like I could go I could leave out this door right now and be you know, hired xy, you know, at this place? Yeah. Truth is, we are so hireable like people, another place that we don’t give ourselves value. We have all these degrees, we have all this experience, the skill set. We do fit boxes when it comes to diversity inclusion, women of color, we are totally hireable people want us. And so the more that we kind of like, you know, embody that, in addition to knowing that we’re the solution that we can negotiate and make sure that we’re in a position where we’re seen, we’re heard, and we’re respected both in our compensation as well as the different, you know, opportunities that are ahead of us.

Michele:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Agree. I wanted to pull up something from Twitter.

Erin:

Video is still on me. Do you want it to change? Do you know?

Michele:

Yes, it should be changing. It’s all good. So let’s see. Do I have it? What did I do? Okay, so I’ll admit to we’ll figure it out. I had it on gallery view, but I’m guessing you don’t see it. On gallery, so I had it on gallery. Okay. So I want it to go to a tweet. If somebody tagged me in two, three days ago on, on, on Twitter, of course, because well, it’s a tweet. But of course, I was in a Twitter chat this morning, and I forgot to save the tree. So I’ll probably go to another question and then come back to it. I may have found it. Now I didn’t.
Come on. Okay, let me just go to another question. Because I really, really want to talk about this tweet. Because I see it so often. It has been two years since my last race. How do I coach my manager about receiving a race this year? Erin, I’ma let you go to this.

Erin:
Okay, there’s several ways to come back to come to this question like, the truth is, there’s definitely money for a raise, and may not be the raise of your dreams. But if y’all are, the doors are still open and people are functioning. And money’s coming in, you know, depending on the industry, there’s an opportunity to have it. In four years, my first risk, my first response is that there that it’s very clear. There’s, there’s clear documentation, so that, you know, all the times that you haven’t been given a raise, you know, like, what are the reasons for that, you know, and that that’s been documented. And if it is something where there’s like, well, there’s just not enough funding, or we’re not getting enough clients, and so on and so forth, that you have the research that shows Well, we did get these five clients, and this is the money that we’re working with, and our budgetary constraints. And, you know, this still isn’t adding up, I will say, once I was denied a race. And I was told it was because I didn’t exceed my goals or something like that. And I took it the first time, you know, like, I took it as we have this conversation, and then I left and I’m like, wait a minute, like, I’ve done everything that was asked of me. In fact, I inherited a team where someone was not the best fit for that work, I brought home some of that work and gave it to my boyfriend at the time, because he was an Excel genius. And I needed him to like, analyze some data. So I’m like, wait a minute, I’ve done the job of like, 10 people, and I had him, you know, as a member of the team, a silent member, I’ve definitely done the work. So I made another appointment, I came back. And the leader finally, like told me that I was hired at the top of our skill, and that the other directors needed to, you know, have some sort of raise so that we can all start to be in the same general range, which this is my first year of working there. So it’s a much different situation. But I appreciated his transparency, I wish he would have been more transparent from the beginning, because I understand certain things like that. But I guess, in that situation, what I learned was okay, you know, like, I heard them out, I kind of sat with it for a bit, and then I got my ducks in a row, I have my evidence, I have those things together. And I would say there’s really no excuse for someone to not have a raise after four years, especially in a for profit industry. Now, some of the other places I work for healthcare, education, you know, like, there’s certain other constraints that are happening, where no one is getting a raise. But I would say, you know, like having that research, maybe talking to someone at HR just to learn more about, you know, in that company, like, what are the you know, what are the things that are needed to have some type of what do you call a pill to not getting the raise?
Um, and then
I guess, I guess, where I hesitate a little bit, it’s like, what’s the deeper context behind that, right? Like, are other people getting raises and you aren’t? And if so, what are they doing? Are you documenting, like your growth and change? You know, like, throughout the time, like, based on your old performance reviews, this is where all that documentation really, I would say, from the first time you are denied a raise, then that’s like a flag of documenting everything that you can show, wait a minute, for a quarter three, I exceeded this goal, like data die, I brought this much money into our company, I saved this much in the budget, you know, just different ways that you can you know, trying to think of like peacefully argue, you know, for yourself, so that you’re not putting that person in, in a defensive mode.

Michele:

Okay, I agree with all of that. Um, what I would add to that is asking them why you’re not getting a raise because somebody actually told me I wasn’t getting a raise. And I say, really? Well, you know, the company isn’t doing well as interesting, because you guys gave out the bonuses. And they were sitting there like, oh shit. So let me explain how this works. And I didn’t want to I didn’t want to say this was personally was brand new to me they didn’t do do we work with the same company, but he worked in the office, I was in construction. And I was like on this job, I’m doing way less than I did in the last job. So what I’m not going to do is not get a raise. And I sat there and broke down to this man who was new to this particular part of energy sector on how shit works. And when I said he looked looking crazy, I said, so make sure that race comes through. And y’all sitting there like you didn’t, I did, because that meant was you ain’t got nobody in it. I know what the hell I know, that’s willing to live out here. You might have people in the office, but the client doesn’t want people in the office, they want people in the field. And after typically

Erin:
another value space to add value Yeah, to negotiate.

Michele:

So them understanding what you know, the dirt, you know, the dirt, you know, sometimes can come back to bite you, but also how you can position the project that team and that particular manager to win. The other thing I would, I would say do it. And as Eric said, do your due diligence is find out, go to your employers job section of their website, see if they’re hiring for your role. See what the pay ban is that they’re hurting for. If it given you $1 amount, yes, what you need to be going in, like, this is what you’re paying for. Now, I’m way under that this is not gonna work. This is what you’re about to do. And I actually had a former classmate. This is some shit that her employer did a few years, it’s been many, many years now probably closer like 10 years ago. For people who had come in like, two years, to a certain date. They’ve dated freeze their salaries, everybody that came in after a certain date, were paid at a higher rate and got certain so many more vacation days that people would come in two years prior. And they were like, Why aren’t you leveling it out? Like they were emailing the CEO, and the VP of HR, they say, oh, because you’re not gonna do it. So you had this two year gap of people who could literally walk out the door, because you refuse to pay them, which you’re currently paying market value to two new employees, and they refuse to do it. Guess what? My friend, I think she said maybe two more years, she just had to move her closer to home. And then she quit. But by the time you factor in how much she had known, she had learned about the company, right? knew how to do business for the company. Plus you have moved her? Guess what? How many 1000s or hundreds of 1000s of dollars you laugh you lost? Because you refuse to increase like 6% pay increase and refuse to give them another week of vacation? They told them no. It looks like Did you seriously do shit. So sometimes you employees do it to themselves.

Erin:
Yeah. But we can’t even be we can only protect ourselves like you’re saying and I I feel like this is that huge push towards transparency. Let’s never accept an answer for face value. Dig deeper, dig deeper, because all evidence down the line and don’t we want people to we want to see your cards, we want to know what your what you think about me? Because I’m sure after you know, they told her no, we’re not going to increase your salary or kind of make it comparable to these new people. Then he already had a plan. She wanted she got to move closer to home and then she left and it is their loss. It’s totally their loss
is

Michele:

so I don’t always feel sorry for employers is you they’re trying to do what’s better within a certain dollar amount. But at the same time, you have to understand what’s the cost to losing employees, because it wasn’t one or two, you’re talking about in a two year span, probably a few 100. They had hired because there’s a huge employer that 20 30,000 employees in multiple states, I think 1233 states, so that’s a lot of people and maybe not all of them cared again, pushback, but some of them definitely definitely did. Okay, last few minutes. I want to read this tweet that somebody tagged me in. Okay. I did everything I was supposed to do. I got a degree went to a coding bootcamp have a portfolio am great at interviewing is really disheartening when people tell me I’m amazing every day, and I can’t get a job. Every every black woman I know in tech, who is unemployed, has my same story. And I’m sitting there like, it’s not just say, it’s dumb. You’ll see this a lot in STEM overall. And I wanted to get your feedback, because I know you’ve talked to others who work in tech,Erin, and see what your thoughts are on this tweet.
Oh, I’m sorry.

Erin:
No, you’re fine. I’m just kind of processing.

Michele:
Um, I can tell you coming out of grad school, I struggled to find an entry level job. And I applied entry level. Even though I already had two years of work experience plus a master’s degree. So for a lot of places, I was not entry level. Um, so as I look back at it now, I probably should have applied for things that were a little bit higher. But again, I was out there on my own. I’m looking at what my other friends and classmates are doing. So guess what I did what they did, right, because that was my, my state of mind. What I would say is when we’re seeing the same results, among this group of women of color, we say, You know what, let me see what other people are doing differently than what I’m doing. So what is that networking look like? And this still doesn’t even matter? Because you can, I’ve had people of color out to Ivy League schools say they have the same issues. Once people know they’re black. That is a whole other ballgame. It takes them longer to change out change out employers. So sometimes it is you doing something differently. And this tweet was the game changer. And I say that because the person actually started getting job referrals. And people saying, hey, try this company, that you have a better chance here, right? So what we see what I’m seeing is more people crowdsourcing information. Because we’re saying we have a problem. Somebody even responded, this happens all the time to my mom is irritating to hear people who work so hard, get nothing but a lame excuse. And told they’ll just they just don’t quite have what the company needs. But that’s every company, though. So what what I like about social is when you put it out there, especially right now, when it comes to tech, it really helps you frame you’re not in this, you did not make this up. And it’s a whole lot of gaslighting. So what’s the solution? The solution is holding employers accountable. And saying, Hey, this is who really does not look at you like that. This is truly who is hiring. And this is truly who are where you can go to get employment. And I think I think

Erin:

sometimes as black folks, like we wait to be invited in. And we know other folks aren’t waiting. So we don’t need to. And first off, there’s so much more responsibility on these organizations side, we know we’re dealing with institutionalism. Like, that’s what a lot of this shit is. But what we need to do too, is not wait until we’re applying to meet people in that organization. Let’s get all of in that, you know, like, let’s create doors where there are none. Let’s meet people in different departments all through who could possibly be advocates for us, who can kind of give us a more of a heads up into the culture of that organization. Maybe we realized that’s a place that we don’t want to be and maybe it furthers the fans the fire that we do want to be there. But you know, in a respect, obviously in a respectful way, because we’re all professionals here, like let’s stop waiting to be introduced to people like let’s just go in, you know, like there’s an event that this company is is throwing if this is the place that we want to be, then how are we all up in you know, their circle of influence in their network, you know, to meet The right people who can then, you know, advocate for us in the inside. And that’s only one, you know, way of approaching this, you know, like, there’s several different things that we can do, you know, maybe we’re just like, we are getting the same answers from the same people, maybe we need to all, like, just branch out and be in different, you know, spaces that can possibly, like, give us, you know, more opportunity, thinking about your approach of like being the solution. Like when we’re so wrapped up, like, those moments when I know, like, I’m the best person for this job. Like, that’s when I’m doing my best salary negotiations. Like, that’s when I’ve like so myself, you know, like, you just can’t get any better than, like, who I am and what I have for this work. And I get everything I asked for. Yeah, it’s like, really, you know, I’m not like that all the time. But the majority, every position that I’ve applied to probably in the last 10 years, I’ve gotten, you know, an offer, and then the ones that I’ve like, gone through that process, I’ve gotten, you know, 20 $25,000 more, you know, during the recession, and you know, like, I mean, this shit is like, is possible, but it’s just, it’s how much we position ourselves. So it’s not just, I’m not going to look at your resume or, you know, you’re a good fit, but we’re in there.

Michele:
Yes, I absolutely love it. Erin, thank you so much for joining me today. This is the actual I know, it goes by so quickly. This is the end of this month, career strategy Saturday. Yes, it is only once a month, especially during the holiday season. And as you know, Erin travels I travel. So Saturdays are generally a better day for us as well. Except for the one week or the five days we were in Atlanta together. So follow me on Instagram. This is Erin who was helping me in Atlanta at my booth at the society, human resource managers diversity inclusion, Conference and Expo. So we will be back next month. If you still have questions, you can definitely send them to me at info at positive hire and Shi r e.co.co. So we would love to hear them. discuss them live. We did not get to every question today. I thought we would but I wouldn’t do to tweet even though somebody tagged me and I just thought it was it’s I get tagged emails from time to time that when I didn’t respond to I was just busy that day. But I did. I did want to discuss it today. Alright, everybody, we will see you next month. So stay tuned. And I hope this has helped you let me know. I’d love to hear that too. Have a great weekend. You. Yes, please do so you can DM me on Twitter to so or tweet and Clinton. So definitely. Erin, any parting words?

Erin:

I just want to thank everyone for their time. And I appreciate you know, having this opportunity to share a little bit about what I know and be responsive to you that submitted questions and I look forward to seeing you next time. You can find me on Instagram at intuitive leadership or on Twitter at Erin A Browder.

Michele:

Okay, on everybody Until next month, have a great one. We’ll talk to you then.
Take care bye