Michele: 

Welcome everybody to how to pivot from engineering to tech. Tonight with us we have Danielle Poehler, she is going to talk about how she transitioned from industrial engineering to technology. So many of you, especially if you’re analytical like me, maybe thinking but Michelle, I’m electrical engineer, but Michelle, I learned how to do pipelines. And I just don’t have that, that technical know how to go into tech. Danielle’s journey is really going to be important in how you look at your skill set, and best practices that you’ve learned already in your engineering career that you can literally transition over into tech, because you already have a technical background, they will try to fool you while you don’t quote him, like, I’m about to say another word, but you can do it, but you don’t do whatever that you do as a technical professional. So they always tell me, but you don’t code away. Yeah, but you don’t build a build this way. You sit down to code, do you? I said, I don’t need technology to build it. You need your job, don’t you? So so just keep that in mind you have a certain skill set. So a bit about Danielle. She has a background in Industrial and Systems Engineering with more than two decades of training, executive coaching, and most importantly, real life in the trenches leadership experience. She is referred to as the motivator for her innate ability to bring the best out in others to consistently drive results and deliver value. She is known for her high energy and human restyle. She hails from Chicago Southside. One other thing I want you to know about her is she is a sports fanatic. I’m Danielle, as you know, hails from Chicago, but y’all know us down in the Dirty South college football. And sports basketball is where it’s at. So before they even make it pro more than likely they come in from these dirt roads around here. I’m just gonna say I’m just gonna save the day. Yeah, I’m gonna turn it over to you so you can share how let’s first start off, how did when did you fall in love with tech? Like, like loving basketball? When did you fall in love with tech?

Danielle: 

So actually, it’s funny, um, when I received a Christmas gift when I was like eight years old, and it was a trs 80. Is anybody familiar with it? Or ever heard of it? Probably not. So it was like a little computer, you hook it up to the TV, and then the TV comes as a monitor. So I wrote my first program when I was eight years old. I programmed a crap game. And then I did this interactive survey with my brother. It was like, What’s your name? He was like money. And then it was say, Hi, Ronnie, did you do the dishes? You know, just little stuff. I mean, I was eight years old, right? So I just thought it was so cool to be able to leverage also program and alarm clock. So I just thought it was so cool to be able to take something that was an idea. And then actually turned it into something that was tangible that you can touch. And so I’ve carried that with me. And I’ve always had an affinity for technology, and solving problems with technology. So that’s how I got hooked. I’m like if my mom would have known what to do. I could have been like Bill Gates right now. But she had no idea that I was like doing that.

Michele: 

Oh, it’s not it’s not too late. Like he still be like Bill Gates. Don’t worry about it. We got we’re in the middle of the road. Now. We’re in the middle of the road. And we don’t want that glare. No problem.

Danielle: 

Oh my my combine board in the back.

Michele: 

We This is the perfect time to start a start up in the garage reading grew up with an a basis we don’t have. So yes, right now is the best time to create a startup and start continuing your path as the black Bill Gates. So okay, so you’re eight years old, you’re creating something new. How many of you ladies have been like that, like you were taking apart stuff? You were putting together stuff? You’re trying to figure out how something worked at eight years old? And you’re like, don’t you take that apart? Which is the remote apart? Why don’t you or did you have to do like me and fix this stuff your brother took apart? Like the book used to play music and it stopped playing music because I bought here let me fix this before you get in trouble again. I will put it either literally. I’m a civil engineer. So So I remember somebody said they remember that computer. So yeah, say you’re not alone. You want your peoples. We know we know about that. I’m not gonna tell my eyes. Don’t remember I remember Tandy in the compacts. The Apple two he was my Yeah. So anyway, okay, so eight years old, you learn how to code. So then obviously you went off to college to be an engineer.

 

Danielle: 

Yes, actually, actually no. So the other part is that the following year, my mom was the, the food service manager for the City Colleges of Chicago. So it’s like a conglomerate of City Colleges throughout Chicago, named after people like your a Washington, Harry Truman, Kennedy King, after JFK MLK. And she supervised all of those foods, the cafeterias. And she would have to do paperwork, like the bookkeeping for all the incoming food and all the orders received. And so she was busy at it at the table at the kitchen table, and I asked what she was doing, she showed me. And after that, I started doing all the bookkeeping for the City Colleges of Chicago. I mean, they probably would have not been very key to that if they knew a nine year olds doing it. So I ended up going to school for accounting. So in high school, I took a lot of courses related to bookkeeping, and accounting. And I went to college, and I majored in accounting. I went to an IU Northern Illinois University, which is, which is a pretty good business school. At the time, they were ranked pretty high, I’m not sure where they are now. But like, in my first couple of weeks, or maybe, maybe month of being there, they had this thing called minority welcome night. And I went, and it had all the student organizations around just to try to, you know, assimilate minorities to the campus. So they can, you know, have a network and you know, learn about the different offerings, programs and groups that they could become a part of, and I looked at, I was looking across, and I saw this really fine gentleman, okay, he was so fine. sitting there looking so strict with his glasses on his legs crossed, and he was reading a book. And I’m just like, hmm, let me see what’s going on at this table. And he was sitting at the table and had a banner National Society of Black Engineers. I never heard any, I never even considered it. I didn’t know any engineers. There weren’t any in my family. The only time I came in contact with one is in my physics class in high school. Our physics teacher, which was an older white male, invited two of his friends, which are two other older white men to come and talk to us about the field of engineering. And that’s all I remember. So after that conversation with him, I went the next day, and I changed my major to industrial engineering. And I look back the best decision I’ve made.

Michele: 

So how many y’all change your major in college? I didn’t change my I came into engineering major, I left the engineering major, but how many of you change even maybe you change in industry, like you got out and interest like, you know, I’m not gonna be an accountant. I’m going and I’m doing software development. I’m doing something else because that is quite okay. Because that is truly what we’re here for tonight. Okay, so now, you in college, you don’t party. Love you. You nerd it out. You nerd. Buddy. I know, I know. But you know, in our minds, it’s like, you know, those of us that grew up in the 80s with Spike Lee, you know, we kind of got an idea what college is gonna be like, and it wasn’t like that. So you graduate, or you’re about to graduate. And what happened? What what happens? You have a job before you graduate, or

Danielle: 

Yeah, I had a an IU is very good about their recruiting, at least, the engineering department was very good about bringing in reputable companies, to our job fairs. And I was able to land a job before I graduated. And I was going to be starting at UPS as an industrial engineer in their management training program. And so I went into my field I liked I liked the field and industrial demand, because it was this combination between, like, management, like people and technology, or not technology necessarily, but like, technical kinds of things, you know, that industrial engineers do. And so, I chose industrial engineering. And I did I started at UPS right out of college.

Michele: 

So your ups doing industrial engineering stuff. And once you get bored because it’s just industrial engineering, so

Danielle: 

you feel like a bean counter. So as an IEE, your job is to guess like cut costs, you know, look at processes, re engineer them, figure out how to do things faster, better, cheaper, right? So when people see you come in, come with a clipboard, and they’re like, oh, Lord, they feel like you are there to eliminate jobs. Yeah, so I decided to take a different approach and when I would go out into the floor, I worked actually the largest ups facility next to the one in Kentucky. This one is like the size of 44 football fields here. I would go out. And when I would see problems, instead of figuring out how to necessarily eliminate jobs, I would figure out ways to solve the problem with technology. So when I was at UPS, I built about four applications. And this was back in ninth 2000. In 2000, I built for applications myself, to resolve a lot of the issues that we were having out in the operation. And so I’ve always incorporated technology, I’ve just, you know, technology is really about and software development is really about solving problems and using technology to do so. So, because I had that experience, and I took a couple of programming classes in my industrial engineering track in college, I just use that knowledge to help do that. And I solved a lot of problems. And so another part of industrial engineering is, like I said, process improvement. So I made a slight transition into the world of Lean Six Sigma, Toyota production system. And so just furthering still building applications, I built several applications. When I worked at different companies, and incorporating what I learned from industrial engineering, I picked up a new skill set, which is around lean, simply around eliminating waste. And since I had taken quality control, as an I, like all of that, it just all played in. And I kept building these databases, and I’m like, you know, what has really happened to transition me all the way into it, is I talked to a recruiter and I’m like, Listen, you know, I really want to do something different. I want to work around really smart people. I really love technology. And he said, you know, you could you would be really good as a scrum master. And I’m like a what? A Scrum Master. I never heard that before. And he said, I want you to meet this lady. And I was so impressed with her. I was recruiting for a position she came in. And she turned it down. And she said, Oh, no, I don’t take anything less than $88 an hour. And at that time, which is about 10 years ago, I’m like, I’m like $88 an hour, she turned. She turned it down. like wait a minute, I start doing the math in my head. So you say a scrum master. Hmm. So, man I took to YouTube. I still watched everything I could. I set up a time to meet with her. She was so gracious. She talked to me. And I’ll tell you what, I was unemployed at the time. And I was I was at the food pantry with my son who had, I don’t know how he was probably just born, bred to be just born. And he’s in a stroller. I don’t want to miss the call with her. I’m on the phone with her. And all I had was like an envelope, I flipped on the back and I started taking notes. I ended up getting my first job as a scrum master with apartments calm, and it’s been history. Oh, I skipped the part I’m sorry, when in my last in my last role as a continuous improvement manager around the lean stuff. I had written a couple of applications there. And it caught the eye of some people from Virgin Atlantic and our technology arm for the company. And they were like, ooh, can you come over here? Can you do this? Can you help us. And then that’s how I got into the into technology like that. Because of the work that I was doing as an industrial engineer kind of work, they saw one of my applications that are built. And so I went over and I managed a project and I had like a team in Australia, India, in Europe. And I was the only one in Chicago. And then it’s been history ever since then that’s when I transitioned over to being a scrum master. So sort of seamless journey a little bit only because the concepts and methodologies can be played out pretty much everywhere.

 

Michele: 
Okay, so we’re gonna, we’re gonna rewind this, back it up, because I understand t QM because I’m a civil engineer, but I actually have a master’s degree in Industrial management. So I understand those processes and things. So what I want you to do for me is an interest because somebody said she’s electrical engineer, which I use Python to analyze power system models, and MATLAB in my current job, you can do those same analysis and use that same software in in tech roles, different tech roles. So you get you had a question in there, young lady out, I want you to ask that. Okay. So you took what you knew, from being as being an industrial AGI by the system being an industrial engineer. So let’s talk about total quality management, how the hell is that related to what you do for code? What What does that have to do with development software?

Danielle:

 
I have left that mindset. Listen, I have forgotten more things and I think a lot of people don’t Okay, let me take you.
Okay, I could ever get your question. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Or maybe you can just throw it throw some throw some some of those old school terms,

 

Michele:

 
and I’m gonna skip because they’re gonna be like, okay, we start. Okay. So wait in there, you became a soft ware, project manager? Where was that in your process in your in your transition? And how did that how did that all play together?

 

Danielle: 

Okay, so industrially. So an industrial engineer, well, I will say, you can be an industrial engineer and doing lean stuff. So when I transition into like the lean world, and T qm and Toyota production system, and it’s just this way of getting things done, that work to reduce defects and eliminate waste, and any process when you’re building a product. And we would do these things called Kaizen projects, right? So it’s like a two week, quick and dirty, get in and you see a problem, we’re going to assemble a team, we’re going to take two weeks, and we’re going to make a quick change. We’re going to measure the baseline at the beginning of the results, whatever it is, we’re trying to resolve. Let me give you an example. So there was a process that we had, that we’re okay, so I get Grahame on, there’s a process of gathering, let me just say, gig RAM is if you ever been on the plane, the cart that comes down the aisle with the pop and the peanuts on it. So I work for the company that assemble that cart, and you will be amazed at the amount of work and chaos, that goes into getting those peanuts and pot on that plane, I just don’t even he would never understand. And so we had a process where the driver that was going to actually drive those carts to the aircraft and lift it up and place in one there, they would have to assemble these carts. And so the cart with the soda was in one spot, the cart with the coffee pots and napkins and tongs are in another spot, and so on. So that process was taking a very long time and it was causing us a lot of delays. Because actually there you know you have been sitting on a tarp or on the plane ready to take off and it’s delayed. A deliverable item is something as simple as tones that will not take off if they do not have tongs to pick up the ice with. So we’ve forgotten that on the cart, that plane isn’t going anywhere. So we were suffering a lot of delays, and flight attendant comments for this reason. And so I had to figure out a way to resolve that. And so in that two week Kaizen, we just assembled a small committee of people, people that are managers, supervisors, and people that are closest to the work, and you just go in, you take a baseline, you figure out what you want to measure to see if you’re successful. You do it in two weeks, and you turn around, but in that two week period, you’ve got to corral all these folks and make sure everything is being done when it needs to be done. So that’s kind of where that skill set of project management comes in. So it was kind of seamless, as it’s understanding what things need to happen when and how to hold people accountable. And how to have effective meetings quick meaning to say, Hey, here’s what’s the most important thing, you know, like a quick huddle on the football field, this is where we’re going to do break and go, because you only have two weeks to turn it around.

 

Michele: 

Love it. So we call that an outage. And that’s the stuff you need to change out in the power plant. You got two weeks, and they will cut you off and you do an hour update. Literally, oh, you’re not gonna have that done it 48 take that off the list is non essential, and you move on to what’s essential, you’re not gonna make the dead day cuz they parent, they make me a million a day. Okay, so we have a few questions in there. And I have I want to go back to that example. Because my other question is, what do I need to know? Um, how to how to code or how to read code. But anyway, the first question is, what exactly is a scrum master? And what skills are transferable?

 

Danielle: 

Okay, so, a scrum master is sort of like imagine, okay, so I do love sports. Stay with me. And I’m gonna go with the infamous Chicago Bulls to say they just do a documentary. And so at that time, they had a coach Phil Jackson. Phil Jackson was the coach of a winning team. Now obviously, you got Jordan, you got Rodman you got, you know, Pippin, they’re out on the field, making the place getting the job done. But why do they need a coach? Like these guys are professional law players, they know the sport inside and out. I mean, they’ve been beat a lot of people out to get there. So why do they need a coach? Well, the role of a Coach is to help move the things out of your way that are slowing you down or blocking you to see those things that you can’t see, motivate you, inspire you, you know, make you go deeper so that you can operate at your optimal level. So let’s just so so think about being a coach. Now. The traditional project manager is like this kind of taskmaster where they’re walking around with like, A board or Gantt chart, and they’re making sure that things start and end on time. And that everyone’s doing what they’re supposed to do when they’re checking off boxes, very command and control almost. Well, that kind of leadership style works in certain environments. Back in the day, when we used to do software development projects, we use something called waterfall. And that’s a methodology where, okay, we figure out all the requirements that we want for this particular product. And then once we do that, then we have someone to take that and then build on that. And then once the design and then from that design they developed and in from that development, that’s the coal part, then it gets tested. Well, by the time it makes it down that waterfall, we’re talking about six months, six months, a year, two years later, at $101.5 million later, and then we deliver it and it either doesn’t work or the customer doesn’t want it or is outdated. So about 17 really sophisticated software engineering and tech people got together at a place called Snowbird, like this resort, and they were trying to figure out what is the best way? How can we start delivering the software, better, faster, cheaper. And they came up with a concept called agile, which is just simply means the ability to pivot on a dime, ability to change directions quickly. And from that there are several different flavors of Agile software development, and one of them is called Scrum. And so a scrum master is the sort of Project Manager when you’re developing software in a scrum or agile workshop. And your role there is to be kind of like this coach, where you have assemble very intelligent, very creative folks all working together trying to produce some software. The problem with that is that software delivery is one human powered activity. So humans are involved, which means Miss to is that you’re building something brand new, which means it’s never been done before. So you need a certain type of leadership to help people navigate uncertain waters. And complex waters like software development. And that’s what a scrum master does. You are sometimes its coach, sometimes a mentor, sometimes a teacher, sometimes a facilitator, it kind of all depends, but what you’re leading is a team of highly skilled, cross functional individuals that are self organizing, that means they run themselves, they figure out how to do the work, they figure out what to do and how to do it. And you just help to navigate that process so that they do a will just like a coach, you’re on the sidelines, you’re not actively engaged. But you’ve got to pull on some very high soft skills in order to pull it off. Now they say Scrum masters need to be technical. I can’t really say because I do have a sort of technical background. But in all my success, I’ve not had to use my technical background. I mean, sometimes I’d be like, Okay, stop blind, it’s not gonna take you that long to build that database layer, cut it out. I know, okay. But for the most part, a scrum master is a role that doesn’t have any authority. So you have to leave with influence alone. So you have to pull on a lot of soft skills. And that role is called a servant leader. So you use things like active listening, empathy. Let’s see, be unable to see your no foresight, being able to see into what’s coming next. And none of those things you can really learn in a classroom, or learning code isn’t going to teach you that. So if that explains it,

Michele: 

I love it. I love it. Okay. And next question, Danielle, what software coding language do you primarily use to create the applications? So that’s back in

Danielle: 

 

the day Visual Basic dotnet. We’ll see plus old is old

Michele: 

this is like the.com burst when she was doing that coding. So if, you know, back then it was JavaScript, Java that was kicking everybody out of calm science and computer engineering. Like they got that sophomore year like whoops, time change from

Danielle: 

when I was in school, it was like we were learning. Okay, a language called Fortran. I don’t know if you’re aware of that for

Michele: 
and yet, it’s like that old stuff.I took sass to it. I like sass. Yeah. So. Okay, um, next question we have How would you would you recommend getting a scrum master position From a QA background with a CSM certification, but no Scrum experience.

Danielle: 

Okay, so this is where, okay, so my first job as a true Scrum Master, I had never done the role before. Like I said, had to do YouTube. And I talked to a lot of people that were doing the work. And I wanted to understand what kinds of things do I need to focus on in the interview? Or what kind of things have I done in the past that would translate? Well, to me being able to demonstrate that I could do this job. So here’s the thing about when you transition or any job, for that matter. No one has any idea whether you can actually do the job or not. Until you get there and you do it. So how do you win the role? It’s whoever is not the best person for the job, because no one’s done the job yet for you to be able to compare and contrast, if you’re a hiring manager, the person who wins the role is the person who is best able to articulate their value to the interviewer. So if you understand what that company or that particular department, what are their problems? What are their pain points? What are they trying to achieve, who their customers are, you know, what’s their roadmap for the future, any information, you can find out about that, to demonstrate in your interviewer in your resume, how you can bring your particular skill set as an asset to them to help them achieve those goals, or to eliminate those pain points. And that’s really what it boils down to. And it doesn’t matter, you know, whether you’re going to be a developer or not, so as a QA analyst, you think like a developer, and you also think like a user, your job is to break essentially, whatever, you know, you don’t want to follow a happy path, your job is to try to break what they’ve done. So you’re coming at it from all kinds of angles, and you’re thinking like a user when you’re doing it. But then when it’s time to get into the nuts and bolts, maybe you need to do some research, then you have to put on your developer hat and you’re there. At the same time, though, you’re an active participant on the software development lifecycle. So if you’re there doing that work every day and being involved in it, you know, what needs to be done in order to get a project or, you know, some work done, or to get a project completed. And so all you have to do is to articulate that effectively in your resume first, and then in in your interview. So whatever kind of things that you’ve done, and as a QA, so maybe you found a defect that saved a lot of money. Maybe you were sitting in a, I guess, an estimating or aura refining session where or a requirements gathering session, and you said, hey, maybe we should do it this way. And because they decided to take your suggestion, you save time, or money, or you improve the quality. And that’s really what it’s all about, and then being able to articulate that in your resume.

Michele: 

Does that help? Yeah, Crystal, let us know if that helps. Um, and especially if you’ve gone back to the summit and looked at how to set up your LinkedIn. If you haven’t met with? Tamra yet, you definitely probably want to set up some time with her to talk about your, your LinkedIn profile. She doesn’t do resumes, but she can definitely help you with the LinkedIn if let us know if that answers your question.

Danielle: 
I want to add something else to that. I want to answer that because I just want to look at I see the word Scrum. So the thing about Scrum, the scrum framework. Okay. It is a I’m actually Well, this is second book I want to write. But I’m actually writing a book called Scrum, for life, a framework for life, because what is more complicated and uncertain than life? So Scrum is just the framework that is designed to be the answer to uncertainty. And so what that means if we think about right now with the corona Coronavirus, COVID-19. Right now, this is very complex time and a very uncertain time. And there’s a way to successfully navigate uncertainty. And that’s what Scrum means. So that’s very applicable. So even if you haven’t done it as a QA, I’m sure you’ve done some of this work somewhere else. So just a few things about Scrum. It basically entails Okay, time boxing. That is a part of it. So let’s just say time boxing is like, Okay, guys, we’re going to only allow a certain amount of time to discuss this particular time. So when you navigate uncertainty, you want to make sure you don’t go down rabbit holes, talking about things that don’t matter. So I’m sure you’ve had some area or a meeting. Meeting effectiveness is one way you lead Had some meetings, maybe you’re the lead for your community of practice for keyways. And you’ve led meetings and kept them on task by timeboxing them and making sure they started end on time. That’s one. Another one is the values the scrum values commitment, openness, respect, courage, focus. I’m sure you’ve done all of that. So finding a way to edge those things into your resume, that will translate and then using those buzzwords. Another one is like a daily standup. That’s a meeting where all the people doing the work first thing in the morning, they come together and they say, Hey, here’s what I did yesterday. Here’s what I plan to do today is and they say if something is stopping them from getting their work done, I’m sure you’ve had little huddle meetings like that with your team, that’s a daily stand up, just call it that on your resume. So you have those buzzwords that stand out, trust me all the concepts within Scrum, you’ve done them before, you just gotta identify when and then translate them in your resume to make sense, and be able to speak to them in an interview.

Michele: 
So crystal, the recording will be available. I’m not going to transcribe it. But to have it here for for later. Yeah. So the daily stand up is something they took from construction. We do that every, every day. They also do it and like you said, we report on what we did yesterday, report on what’s supposed to go on today and report on any high level issues. Um, because it’s very easy on a billion dollar project. One crane going down one crew being unsafe, that was shut your whole project down. So yeah, it is. And

Danielle:
when I worked at White Castle, so here’s one for you. I worked at White castles when I was 17. At the end of the shift, right, though, you know, the day shift talk to the evening shift. Hey, here’s what’s happening to check machines now. Bla bla bla bla, bla. So you so you’ve conducted a daily stand up.

Michele: 
So don’t let tech fool you? Are they doing me shit? Oh, I’m sorry. But ain’t doing nothing new. They just call it something different. We’re gonna come with new stuff. Look what they do in manufacturing. They do and we’re gonna call it agile. So that’s what happens when he started drinking. Okay, so

Danielle: 
I’ll drink it all Snowbird they will take it. I thought they gave us something to do. But it’s nothing new under the sun.

Michele: 

Yeah. Okay, being in utility industry for 13 plus years. How do I transition to tech in a senior engineering role? Without my career of being tech heavy?
I’m gonna say this.
Let me go back. This is the same person who says she could I use Python to analyze power system models and MATLAB in my current job. That’s part of what she does right now her current role in utility insurance.

Danielle:

So let me preface I pretty much probably just only need to say this. My experience in reading women, women, especially women of color, are like the only ones who stopped to say, I’m not qualified. Or I don’t have this certification, or I don’t have that degree or I don’t have it. Why man, they see a job. Listen, they will see a job. They mean it’s 10 things you need. They may call they might not have, they might have three of them.

Michele: 
No, they breathe it nigga. No qualification. You just breathe it.
Let’s roll with you.

Danielle: 
Right. But when we look for work, we’re like, the one thing one thing shows up in that bulleted list. And then we cancel ourselves out. I hope a lot of people find work I have this program. I do call like, six figures in 30 days or less, right? That I used to do back in the day, and the only thing that matters is how you see yourself. And if you believe it, then you shouldn’t have any problem convincing. All it is is marketing. Just remember that it all is marketing. Our number one marketing tool is your resume. And then once you get in front of them, you’re convincing them take for instance the scrum master job, all of the skill set you need to do a scrum master. We all have an intuitive intuitively, especially when caring for others. You know your success is based on the success of others. Like the whole point of Scrum. Like it my journey to become a professional Scrum trainer to teach this stuff. And oh, by the way, charge about 15 $100 per head for the certification Class A team do the math. Two days worth of work 15 grand, okay. So in my journey to become a professional Scrum trainer. They kept having to beat it out of me. No you reveal you do not resolve you. Reveal the problems, you don’t resolve them. Your job is to help the team see their own problems, and then facilitate the conversation for them to fix their own problems. Now, what skills do you need to do that? Right. So, a lot of times we get in our we get in our own way, and we tell ourselves No, before anybody else can. And that’s the biggest hurdle. Once you release that, you’ll be amazed at how your mind opens up, creative creatively, and juices begin to flow. And plus, I will say this, your network equals your net worth. So you know, what I say is not what you know, is who you know, well, is not who you know, is who knows you. So if you have the right network of folks who know you, who know your skill, set your ability that you’re hungry, that you want to try something new, when when a job opening comes up, you’re on their mind, you’re Top of Mind with them, they know you, so they’ll call you. And really that’s how 80% of the jobs are. One anyway. I mean, I haven’t really applied for a job in like 10 years. So get out of your own way, and build out your network. And you can get any job doing anything you want learn as you go learn on the job anyway.

Michele: 
Get paid to learn don’t pay, don’t pay for. Okay. Next question. I recall hearing in project management that most projects fail, do you find that to be the Do you find that to be the cause? How do you feel when they fail? How they most organizations deal with the failures? reorg do they reorganize?

Danielle: 
Absolutely 100%. Correct. A lot of that is the reason why they came up with Agile software development. Because of all the failures. I hadn’t seen. I didn’t go to any company algorri started, like how many of your projects and on time, or go come in under budget, zero. And the reason why is because they do a lot of upfront design, upfront problem solving, they try to figure out everything, including when they’re going to be finished. At the beginning. Now, human beings suck at estimating how long it’s going to take you to get there, oh, 20 minutes, and you should have an hour, okay, late, because you didn’t calculate there was going to be an accident, or it was going to start raining, or you forgot the gift. So trying to pretend as if you can see into the future, and come up with everything that the customer is going to want to me before the customer even knows or how long it’s going to take is absurd. What Scrum forces you to do is to step back and allow yourself to be uncertain, stop trying to give an answer to an answer you don’t know instead, it’s big based on something called empiricism, which if you’re in any kind of data, you all know what that is empirical data. It’s where information is gathered, based off experimentation and observation. So now instead of trying to make decisions about how many people we need, and what we’re going to do next, based on the future, because you’re not God or a fortune teller, and then if you are, no, we can get hooked up on that lottery. But unless you’re that person, you shouldn’t be trying to do that, instead allow the answers to be emergent. So we try something for a little bit, we get some answers. And now we make decisions based off of what is known. So that is how empiricism works in an uncertain environment is we just start with something what we think like an experiment, like in science, you know, here it is, if Here we go, you can be a scrum master, if you took science, and you all did the scientific method, I’m sure you have a purposes, you’ll do an experiment by law Do you accept or reject? That’s all that’s all strung in. So if you’ve done that, before, you can articulate that in an interview, you have an idea about what you think you put together a little experiment, you test it out, you get some results. Now you have feedback. Now you can make a decision about either to accept that rejected to move forward or what to do next. So I think I answered it. I think so. Oh, that’s why so that’s why they fail because they try to do everything upfront. And how does the company, you know, well, they keep pushing the date back. That’s one way they do it. They keep pushing the date back or they blame people. It’s this person’s fault is that person’s fault, and usually it falls on the project manager. So in Scrum, the beauty of it is is that all the wins are shared, and all the so called failures, but I call the feedback are shared. So that’s the beauty of not being an IT project manager stress or project manager stressed out because the success is going to be Don’t you, or the failure is going to be on you. But as a scrum master, it’s everybody. So we share all of those responsibilities across on what a normal project manager would do is share it across that team. And so if you adapt an agile mindset, that’s one way that companies try to avoid that. But they don’t do it, right. They don’t do Scrum. Right. So they end up failing, enabling all Scrum doesn’t work. But that’s because they still try to command and control.

Michele: 
Yeah, um, the comment was, I was at a place that had agile development, it was a nightmare, everyone was stressed. Is that the case everywhere.

Danielle: 

It is not the case everywhere, but you will find those places that are doing it well, unusual enough. And I’ll tell you what, the number one consistently, version one does the State of the Agile report every year and consistently for the past decade. There are two things that remain as the number one and two barriers to agile adoption, and one is company culture. And two is that infrastructure. So how the company is structured, you know, in silos, so the QA department has a QA manager, and then QA is and then you put up, then the engineer’s report up. And then when you try to assemble those folks on the team, well, guess what? Well, my boss said this, or we’re doing it this way. And so there’s a level of confusion as there. As far as the company culture, again, that requires a different type of leadership style, to navigate uncertain waters. Case in point Donald Trump. We’re in very uncertain waters right now, how would you say he’s doing in terms of leading the people. So you have to be a servant leader, and part of a certain leader is that you actually give a fuck about it, you actually give a care about other people. Not gonna say more. But first. And we know that that’s not that leadership style. So this is why people feel even more confused, and even more afraid. But if we had someone there in that role, that was the true servant leader, then they can navigate these waters for us. And even though we don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow, we feel comfortable about taking it one day at a time. And that’s what a scrum master does 14. So that’s what they want. They don’t want to change the way they’re doing work. They still want they want the benefits of Scrum, or agile. But they don’t want to change the way that they work together in the way that they lean. It requires them to back up and let the team figure it out themselves. So So, so many things, I mean, self organizing, figuring out the work yourself having more like a coach versus a taskmaster leading the way, like that’s foreign to them.

Michele: 
Thank you just ran through my first project and construction, because everything, I don’t know what it is, but every time I like, yeah, that job in Pittsburgh started in 2006 is 22 months. I left in 2010. You do the math. So and I agree it is all culture, it is all culture. And we got to be we were the scrum team. So, but that’s not what he called a construction. Okay. Next question. If you were to recommend a language to get familiar with, what would it be?
what’s hot right now? Python, Python, our J.
Hey, we don’t know.
I mean, I’ve made more money than most of the developers I’ve ever worked with. Just saying,
hey, Lisa, what’s hot out in the bay? Oh, it

Lisa: 
kind of depends on like, what you’re doing, um, like, I’m in the autonomous vehicle space. So C and c++ is still hot for that for simulation, it would be more like Python. And then I want to like and we still have a lot of, you know, web development out here. So using a lot of the JavaScript frameworks like you know, react or somebody other ones because I haven’t done web development in a long time. But it kind of just depends on what you’re doing. Nothing is really, I think being like I work in the embedded space and in the, I guess, GUI application space, and right now, I think C sharp might not really be you know, being used that much anymore. But C and c++ are still being used. Definitely.

Danielle: 
Oh, am I could get a job, isn’t it?

Michele:

I don’t know if we want to cover the cost of the day in your life, though. But it’ll be remote right now. It’s gonna be remote right now. Take the money. Now, girl, take that money out. And that’s what I’m telling y’all right now. If you see, apply for everything right now because it’s going to be remote. and test it out. Try it out and like now I’m moving out there but I appreciate the experience. I’m staying right here in Atlanta. They go find somebody else in Atlanta, you know, I’m saying, so now is the one of the best time out. Yeah, like what Michelle is scary out here. But you ain’t gotta move, you ain’t gotta move to Seattle, if you don’t want to move to Seattle. So it’s a product. It’s a protocol. I’m just saying, if you like the culture where you live, you can get your hair done, eventually. You You can go to your church, eventually, you can go hang out and eat at the places you like and see what I look like you’ve taught like you relate to you eventually, then, you know, I’m saying, it’s not a bad time. I’m just saying, okay, we have a few more questions.

Danielle: 

And then, Michelle, really quick, I
just wanted, I forgot about Java, because companies like Netflix and Roku. I use Java a lot, especially for streaming. So Java is really big in streaming.

Michele: 

And I would just say it was it was the post they had about how New Jersey unemployment was using cobalt. And they were going, Oh, why don’t you they’re such an old language. I said, Oh, y’all young folk, they use all sorts of crap in the government. They don’t change languages, just because new stuff come out. It’s like, Oh, my God, the new, the new, whatever, Toyota, whatever came out, I’m gonna go buy my car that will pay for the engine run good. The gas mileage is good. You ain’t got to worry about the increased property taxes and insurance because your old car we’re just not. And they don’t understand their minds. And we don’t hold us you don’t go buy a house. Every time there’s a new subdivision. You keep saying after that a 30 year mortgage on it. So

Danielle: 

all right. Well, for me, I just did it. I did a contract with northern trust. They manage, like for $3 trillion in assets, and they use mainframes to

Michele : 

Yeah, a lot of financial institutions are not going away from mainframes now. Like cloud is cute, but we don’t we got 30 years invested, they did that. If y’all took engineering, economics, you know, they did that 30 years, we not replacing this to everybody to die, they know how to run this,
the cloud is cute.
They’re not gonna pay for infrastructure, they’re not going to pay for it. They’ve already invested in and they have, they have looked at how much it’s gonna cost to replace it like now, we secure it, we know how to work. And change is it’s very hard as a business owner and you do this because you do consulting. It is very hard to change tells me you’ll save money like now. I’m good. My iPhone six, cuz I know how I work. I don’t want whatever model out because I gotta go buy all this extra stuff. I gotta learn what the new buttons is. Y’all don’t move the camera. I know how this work until it dies. I’m leaving. I’m sick. Even though I can’t hear my text messages come through. I know. You just go check every hour. They will not change mindset, y’all. You cannot sell people on that.

Danielle:

And that’s That’s it. That’s it right there. change the way they do work change the way they see the work. All that. Okay.

Michele: 
Nicole, I don’t know if we helped you with the languages but you got plenty options, though.
All right,
now’s a great time to learn them.
Yeah, it is. Um, did you obtain any certifications to supplement your Scrum Master onboarding or learning she’s Oh, she she says certifications are to supplement. Okay. certifications not YouTube. Alright.
YouTube is a rapid
okay.

Danielle: 

No, I did. I did that. But after I got the job, I made them pay for it. So I can get certification. So now I’ll just get them because like, well, the one I’m getting now is so I can become a trainer. But the first one the CSM, I have a CSM as well. And you. It’s a two day course. They teach you if you pass the exam with 85 or something percent, but it doesn’t really prepare you to do the job. But don’t get me wrong. Having a certification can give you that edge. Like when there are because the people hire they don’t really know that you don’t really learn diddly in that class. Because everything they taught in the class I learned online before I showed up. This is specific to Scrum like I mean, I wouldn’t say go try to be a developer. You don’t know how to. You don’t know the language. Although I’m not saying I wouldn’t try it.

Michele: 

Maybe on Twitter, like I have somebody on my team. They’re like, I don’t know. Let’s go to Google.

Danielle: 

Like other people’s money list,

Michele: 

but I’d be like, so y’all be trash talking. Oh developers who have you to there were no Google. There might have been Yahoo groups in original chat rooms. Okay, but I won’t talk about y’all over on Twitter cuz I’m taking a break. Okay. Any thoughts on companies that are using Scrum or agile? Well, I think you answered that because you gave the resource of where to go to get that

Danielle:

out of the startups are doing okay with it. But the old school companies where they like been around for a long time, chances are their infrastructure is very layered with a bunch of management. And here’s the deal. Scrum has three roles in development team, product owner, and Scrum Master. So everybody starts freaking out when they don’t see their role. And then they start booking is the system managers, ba, you know, anyone else who’s currently participating When spring comes around, and they don’t see their role, people are married to their titles, like that kind of thing. So startups are great places, companies that have been in business less than 10 years.

Michele: 

I’m there to my money. I’m like, cardi B, um, get that title on. Yeah, you know, it’s so funny, you say that, because I’m cuz I’m still in my comparison, I keep telling you, I keep hearing what she’s saying, by school. And I’m still thinking about construction. And I work for bear view, my foreman was very bureaucratic, very hierarchy, hierarchical, but we had to go and build utility facilities for our clients. And they were both the same way. And we would come in there killing them. Because we were all a lot of us are a type of personnel, I got days to hit, I got budget to maintain, whoo, get out when I ludicrous. And yeah, and at first, it would be bucking to says like, No, we don’t do it halfway through that project, like, yo, we need to do this, how are we gonna get there and be like, Oh, that’s easy. ABC, anybody? Alright, let’s go. So after a while, once you prove yourself, they come, they can, they may come around, they may not change their culture internally at first, that team that shows that it works, that drive, that change, it will start to spin because you will become the star within that organization. And as long as that team stays together, the longer that team stays together, what happens usually that team breaks apart, because people end up being able to take that experience to elevate and advance their careers. So learn the skill set on how to build good teams as well, when you get that under your belt. Um, okay, let’s see, what is your typical day look like? What kind of deliverables do you have? What are the hours? What is the stress level? What types of personalities are you dealing with? Go ahead, birthday down.

Danielle: 

Alright, typical day. No, it’s funny. My mom asked me what I do for a living, because I was working from home and she was like, Did you get fired?
I’m like, No, mine’s called working from home. I’m down. So what do you do anyway? I’m like, nothing really. She was like, I hope you don’t let, I hope you don’t tell nobody. You’re bossy you saying that. And I was like, calm down. So really, my day looks like, I may or may not sit in on some of the daily stand ups, but I’m observing. Any other meetings, I’m an observer. If I need to step in, I may step in to help resolve conflict. Using my soft skills to facilitate a conversation. Ask powerful questions for the most part, especially as an I’m an agile coach now, so I’m no longer Scrum Scrum Master. I’m an agile coaching user, someone who kind of oversees other Scrum masters. So like, the team is having a meeting. And they’ll say, well, this thing is blocking me and I can’t like, Oh, well, how long has it been blocking? Well, this long? What teams do you need to coordinate with to fix that? Let’s see what what’s been what have you been able to accomplish so far? What’s another option? Oh. So just asking powerful questions throughout the day. As a scrum master will tell you, I’m gonna be honest, that’s how you really do the work. But then as a scrum master, most companies haven’t graduated yet. And they still expect you to, like, set up the meetings. You know, make sure everybody’s in the stand up. You You’re the one talking in the meeting, like Okay, guys, we’re going to start now, that kind of thing. So some companies kind of still expected to do that. Now, for me, I do. I do some reporting, I may gather some data to say, Okay, here’s how we’re progressing towards our goal and share that with the team. I go and find articles that are informative, share that. I mean, I do a lot of stuff that’s above and beyond because I’m trying to just help them think differently. But in terms of what an employer would expect from you, as a scrum master, maybe some reports, set up some meetings. So you’re like a meeting planner. I say if you’re a meeting planner, you could be a scrum master too. So, you know, and then cope, you know, just talking with people seeing how their day is going, that sort of thing. therapists, sometimes sometimes like a mom, sometimes like a best friend. Because the goal is to make really, to get people to change is to get people to do something differently every day than they were doing before. So if I come in a team, and the results are this, how can I get the results here, I have to get them to do something differently every day. And the reality of it is, is all of our those are behaviors. So all of our behaviors are driven by our beliefs, thoughts and feelings. So all I really do is I help the team feel better, so that they can bring their A game to work, they already know what to do. I mean, they’re software engineers, for crying out loud, extremely intelligent, creative individuals. So they don’t need me to tell them what to do. They just need me to help them move shit out of the way that’s stopping them, make them feel good, and you’re gone. So that’s really what my day consists of deliverables. Like I said, maybe some reports. Sometimes I’ve been where like BlueCross, BlueShield, they want you to like manage the dollars that’s being burned up by the team. That’s really easy, because they have all kinds of software to do that Microsoft Project different things. So that’s easy. The hours. Okay, so I’m online, about eight, I’m working about two. If that stress level depends on the culture of the company, in the in the culture of any place, any team in family is made up of the people that are in it. So if the people are afraid, or cheap or risk averse, don’t like change, afraid to fail, afraid to make a mistake? How strong are strong personalities? That’s the it’s all people stuff that causes the stress. It’s never the technology. So the personalities, you know, some, okay, a lot of times, developers can be introverts, you got to figure out how to get them comfortable coming out. And being a part of a team, they kind of just want to be heads down developing but more for something like the scrum framework to work. You need people to be actively engaged and comfortable taking interpersonal risk, like speaking up and trying new things. So some other traits, personalities, people that have been at the company for a long time. They hoard information. hoard knowledge, they’re resistant to change. You know, stuff like that. regular people stuff.

Michele: 

Yeah, no matter where you go is the same thing over and over again. Okay. We have one last question cuz I don’t see anything else that I’d asked y’all. Okay. They said love it. Very informative. This is really helpful. Okay. And I have an announcement to share, even though I want to I’m gonna do it anyway. Because I in a selfish first, have you found the scrum role to be more rewarding than engineering and project management? If so, why?

Danielle: 

Yes, yes. And yes. And yes, number one reason. I’m just saying, I’ll tell you what the most of the most that I’ve made is $95 an hour as a scrum master. Now, I’m going to say that, in that particular role, I lowball myself and I had the potential to make 115. But I was being afraid, and I was scared to ask for it. So let me just say that, number one, it has been the money. Number two, it has been able to curate a network of some solid folks that I could call on. So I’ve got an opportunity to work in an industry where you’re meeting some really smart people, and really connect with people. So that network number two, and it’s very rewarding, because again, like I said, the failure is shared and feedback, I call it but the failure is shared. And so the weight is not on you as a PM, the weight is on you. As an engineer, kinda, sometimes I kind of feel like some days, I just want to come in and write some code and go home. I don’t want to be dealing with anybody and all this stuff. But when I could come into a company like Allstate with a team of 67 people, which is not a real agile team, by the way, recommended is three to nine people, okay? For an agile team, but this they have 67 people they were working together for nine months on a special redesign project. They were burning through 90k a week. And then those nine months of working together they had not released A single piece of working software. So when I came in, like the interview was something like this, like a, basically, they need a queen bee, they need like somebody to come in and not hold their hand and just to get it done, you know, just come in, you need to sound confident, you know, I did it. I came in and I did it. And an interview lasted like 10 minutes. I’m like, they were like, okay, like, we’ve heard enough. They were like, okay, and I was like, Damn, this booth, I didn’t get to the card and recruiter was calling me like, they want you. I came in. And within five months, I saved $3 million. Right? That’s very frequently more now what I’ve been really rewarding. If I was really working for myself, and I had negotiators give me 10% of whatever I say, you still

Michele: 

get it, you still could have negotiated that as part of you as an employee, you can still negotiate that.

Danielle:

Yeah. Okay, man. All right. You don’t get an engine when I was writing, like when I was developing applications, it was rewarding because I could create something and solve a problem in at least two or three, two applications that are put in place a gig, or maybe they still use right now because like people hit me up like this. So that was kind of rewarding. But nothing has been more rewarding than this. I’ll tell you, I mean, I can show you like a card that I got from that group where they call me like a savior, you saved my life, people were quitting because of that project. And basically, what I did is I, you know, this is when I really started taking my role to heart. Because I can come in and make a difference not only at work for these people, but then they go home and they’re better spouses. They’re better parents, they’re better friends. And they all have a better overall better quality of life. And so yes, so all that very rewarding. Yes, so absolutely.

Michele: 

So I’m glad that answered the question. Y’all give it up for day. Yeah, thank you for dropping these gems. Um, one thing I want to tell y’all is I’m sorry, I’ll be right back then y’all from so what am i competitors called fairy god boss is actually doing a job fair career fair. And one of the companies that is going to be there is a fin tech company, I want you to go and apply for the position for that job fair, they do require you to have a technical background. So Jessica, be sure you have your mat lab, and everything on your resume. Like if you don’t have a resume, just PDF, your LinkedIn profile. So whichever one is most up to date, if you don’t have time to do it, I think the last day to register might be made 28. So you have a week, but don’t quote me on that. It’s called fairy god boss. If you see something, um, I only work with particular company. So I have a very, very small list. And I just literally talk to this company last week. They’re not a client yet. But it is an opportunity. I’m not sure I wanted to career fairs either. But anyway, is the opportunity for you to at least test the market, they will not even let you in. If your documentation does not show you have a technical background. So be sure you own your ish when you go to apply. Okay? Or you just want to try a dirty one What I mean by a dirty one, put your sister name on it. Or somebody and you’re just kind of if you’re in a Facebook group, or you got other friends that are playing like see what they had on their resume if they got in or if they got rejected, so that it helps you so it’s called fairy god, boss. Hey, Dad, calm, Danielle. Thank you so much. This gal see why y’all see why I want her to join. Right? This is dope, right? This is dope, though. I
hope I’ve provided some kind of value.
Oh, they love you. They love they loving you. Yeah, great job. Yes. Okay, so, um, we will catch you next time audience here. Don’t go anywhere. I want to do an exercise with y’all real quick. So y’all know,

Danielle: 

I’m gonna I’m sorry. Because I know you’ve got to cut me off. But I’m gonna drop my email in. And if you have any questions, just email me. I can help you. Also, I have a large network that is available to you all of you. So if you see a role somewhere, you see I’m connected to them on LinkedIn, reach out to me, I can make an introduction. Plus, I’m always privy to new jobs. And besides, my bosses are always asking me, Do you know someone who can do what you do? And I’m like, no. So yeah, I get hit every day for jobs. So

Michele: 

I will put your email in the blog post. We post this on a website, but I put your LinkedIn profile. So y’all at least have that because you know, somebody will come along and scrape your email anyway if they don’t already have it. Okay, so thank you, everybody.