MICHELE:

Hello, everybody, this is Michele Heyward. Today, I have a very special guest, who’s just across the pond. I have Marissa ligonier. And she is going to be discussing, or we’re going to be discussing the black professional experience in the UK, a US corporate settings. And unlike Marielle, I’ve only worked in the US, but she has worked in the US, and is from the UK. So she has that experience that we’re going to talk about where we think, Oh, it’s so much better other places, or we wish we were doing X, Y and Z here, where they’re doing it up, because they’re doing well over there. But really, is it better when you’re talking about black professionals? So Marielle, can you tell everybody a little bit about yourself and what bought you ended up bringing you to the US?

MARIELLE:
Oh, thank you, Michelle, and thanks for the warm welcome and introduction. So Hi, everybody. Nice to meet you all. My name is Mariana gear, and I wear a few hats. I am a publicist, personal branding, strategist, and speaker, international speaker. But I often say that my superpower is helping ambitious women become better known for their work. So whether you’re in a corporate environment, wanting to increase your visibility to move up the ranks, I could support you because I’ve got strong corporate background. Or if you’re an entrepreneur wanting to get more visibility, my area of focus for entrepreneurs is using LinkedIn, and publicity to really kind of catapult their success. So that’s what I do. And what was your other question? Did I answer it all?

MICHELE:

So what how did you end up in in the US

MARIELLE:

was I ended up so that’s a that’s a great question. So rewind to 2011. I was on vacation in New York with my sister and I just, I love the pace and the energy of New York City. And I decided like there and then I had to move there. I was just like, sold on the energy. I don’t know if anyone watching if they’d been to New York, but you would know what I mean. It’s just has like an energy like no other. And yeah, I just decided that I wanted to move at the time, I was working at one of the big four consultancy firms. So that was the easiest way that I knew to make it happen. And within nine months later, I was flown out on a first class flight to relocate and start a new life in in Brooklyn. So yeah, that’s how it all happened.

MICHELE:

Okay, they, so you made it to the US, you are loving the energy? What hap, what is your experience now that you’re here in the US? What is your experience, like as a black professional?

MARIELLE:

You know, in some ways, it’s really interesting, because New York, I feel, especially New York and probably say La is kind of like the Mecca. Very, very cosmopolitan. So I remember the first day that I walked into the office in because we base at 30 Rockefeller Center, which is in the heart of Manhattan, Midtown Manhattan, I remember walking on the like the senior level, the C suite floor, and being like, wow, there’s actually black executives that work here that are kind of at that level, the senior C suite level. I’ve never seen that before. Because in the UK in London, I had never seen a black partner. I have never seen anybody work in and really senior black level, that level in London. Whereas in New York, it was just like a standard thing. So that was the first time that I saw me represented a senior level. So I was feeling so inspired. Just seeing what was possible for me, because up until moving to New York, I hadn’t seen it.

MICHELE:

Okay, wow, that I can’t even I guess, for me, it’s just like, oh my god, I see one. It’s like you see a black person they see you hear, like, I see you. And we kind of give each other a head nod. And you were like, no, it was way past that like, Oh, yeah, it was

MARIELLE:

like, wow, literally, I think I remember messaging like my parents, or maybe my dad or my mom saying, Oh, my gosh, would you believe I’ve seen like black, you know, senior leaders. So yeah, and it just goes to show, you know, Michelle, that representation is so so important. Because often we just I feel people kind of get into their own little bubble and thinking that their voice doesn’t matter. But it is so so important, because that really helped me feel that I was valued and that I was making an impact and I didn’t feel as isolated as I had done, quite frankly.

MICHELE:

Absolutely. And it’s Often cisgendered white men don’t get that feeling where they don’t belong, right? Yeah, I remember talking to someone who was military, US military and being in an African country. And one of his fellow, I won’t say what branch, but somebody, it was a white man with him, who felt very uncomfortable and ordered all all of them that they were leaving period. And he was like, there was the one time he felt he was someplace where he was truly welcome. He felt he belonged, even though it’s outside the military, but as a country when he felt he belong, it was like, Oh, no, we have to go. This doesn’t feel right. And it was just like, Are you serious? Huh? It’s okay, when it’s us, but not when it’s you. So this query is very, very tailoring of what it’s like to have that experience and not have to have that privilege and not realize you have it all of a sudden you’re like, Oh, no, no, I can’t handle this. I have to go.

MARIELLE:

Yeah, she’s on the other foot. But I think those experiences are important. Because, you know, right now, in the UK, obviously, everything that happened over the summer with like the Black Lives Matter and print prior to that the me to movement, I think it’s really shine a spotlight on, you know, underrepresented groups that had never happened before. Never in my lifetime, have I seen such dialogue around the lack of representation of black of the black community, you know, my community. So what’s interesting, now, as we’re approaching the holiday season, we’re starting to see advertisers really try to be more diverse and more inclusive in their advertising. But that is ruffling a lot of feathers. There’s a lot of people, there’s a lot of angry white people that are upset that for the first time in UK advertising history, we’re seeing black families, we’re seeing community, we’re seeing love amongst the black community, people aren’t happy with that being shown on TV, and that is very telling of just how entrenched certain groups have been by represented versus others, because it shouldn’t cause such upset in 2020 to see a black family on the TV. So that’s what we’re dealing with. Absolutely.

MICHELE: I wish I could say it was what is the norm here. But if when we had the first black Stormtrooper in Star Wars, okay, was that that was what, five or so years ago, okay. And it was just like, No, we did there are no blacks, like, how do you know whose story is this? Right? And so anything that changed his perception, or beliefs is harshly pushback on especially when you bring in black people, and you changing norms, Cheerios commercial. Right? That was they got backlash for that. And so, you see, I think, in the US, and obviously, the UK seems to be behind in the US, and we always say massively isn’t doing enough? And from our discussion, like, no, we’re looking at the US like, wow, we’re really behind. We’re gonna like Hell,

MARIELLE:  yeah. Yeah, it’s, I think it’s behind in different ways. Because the racism that I encountered in the UK was very, very hidden. You know, it’s like, you can’t describe it, you know, whereas I feel like in the US, the racism that I saw, and experienced there was just much more over, you know, much more over no question. And that’s why I just wonder how we’re going to move forward in the UK, because we’ve never, we don’t even like to use the term black. So we’ve got this acronym called Bain, which is black, Asian, minority, ethnic or something. It just pulls everybody who’s not white into this category called Bane. And it’s only late that people are beginning to question Hey, should we even be using this term? Because my experience for instance, as a black woman with Caribbean heritage, whoa, I am Caribbean is very different to say a white Chinese man. But yeah, we’re all pulled into this bucket. Everyone who’s not white is pulled into this bucket. And it’s just gonna it just makes it very, very difficult for people to have conversations about progress, since we’re not even comfortable saying the word black, you know,

MICHELE: exactly. One thing I also find when it comes to racism, people believe because they’re nice. They’re not racist. Like that’s not how none of that works. Yeah, how many how many nice criminals where they they stole your money, right? Or they, they robbed, but they were nice. I couldn’t rob you doing it? So you have to understand what racism is what it looks like to be racist? And also what it looks like to be anti racist.  So, and I think the So what are some of the positives? So we’ve talked about the negatives, we’re seeing the UK is ahead of the US when it comes to black professionals or blacks, black people in general?

MARIELLE: Hmm. Well, I don’t think we are ahead. I hate to I, you know, I we’re not, we’re just not ahead. And I think part of the reason, obviously, we’re not comparing like with, like, the US has a very different history to the UK. So we can’t compare the two. But what I would say is, it’s only the past few months, that we’re starting to have this conversation. And it’s actually got, I feel like it’s gone quiet. But I’m hoping that there is real change happening. But I think it starts with self awareness, awareness of the fact that there is a huge disparity, racism does exist. We need to get comfortable talking specifically about the issues impacting black people, as a community and not just kind of pull us in with everybody else. Because I think that in itself does isn’t helpful at all. But I think is is is reassuring that we’re at least having the dialogue, because probably even as little as six months ago, that that wasn’t even a thing. People didn’t even acknowledge racist racism. So I think the progress is going to be slow. But I think it does start with acknowledgement, which I which is, which I think is a positive thing.

MICHELE: Yeah, I agree. It has to start with self first, I was talking to a friend who does diversity, equity inclusion training. And she has been running trainings before, before the most recent Black Lives Matter movement, just specifically for white people. And shoes before you know, she would have one or two groups of 10 or so she said, Now she has a waiting list. And she has people going through it multiple times. Because you’re taught from birth. Everything you see is everybody that looks like you and you thought being nice was being was was not being racist is a lot of reteaching. And understanding those beliefs and what and what’s wrong like no, in history, black people did this when it came to war. And that’s none of that’s in there. When it came to inventions, like people invented these things, completely left out.

MARIELLE: Yeah, whitewashed is right. Yeah, exactly.

MICHELE: And so just the, how you teach people what you learned was not the complete true, or sometimes was not true period. It’s like, Oh, my God. Now everything that they may have believed they built their hopes, dreams and aspirations on is completely different. And it can be a true struggle. And like you say, it starts with self.

MARIELLE: It does. And just the willingness to unlearn things, like you alluded to, right, like just the willingness to acknowledge that the history that we’ve been taught isn’t actually accurate. You know, it’s from one voice one perspective, and it overlooks the contribution the disparities that have existed, the prejudices. So it is a lot of unlearning. Absolutely, absolutely agree.

MICHELE: Okay. Um, so you said the conversation is died down and I and I had this conversation and I have these conversations or thoughts as well. We can lose the conversation is that down and people like I’m overwhelmed. I’m tired of talking about this. And I was like, let me put it to you in this perspective with which is Don’t you think retired a living it? All you doing? Talking about it?

MARIELLE: Yeah. Try living? Yes. Yes.

MICHELE: You do not live this for 10 2040 5075 years? Huh? You haven’t even been talking about it 90 days? Yeah. A year. Um, let’s just say you haven’t talked about it for a year. Yeah, fatigue does not even match up to my experience.

MARIELLE: Yeah. And you’re right, what a privilege it is just to be tired. That’s it. You know, you’re not. When I think about part of the reason I felt so triggered during, you know, everything that was going on in the summer, is because it brought up a lot of a lot of the trauma that I’ve experienced throughout like going to school here going to university, existing as a as the only black person in predominantly white experiences. Having To deal with microaggressions, all of that, it just opened up a lot of the stuff that I’ve experienced, but I just bury, because as I think as black professionals, you kind of just have to deal with it. Because there’s comes a point when you just want to get out of bed, you know, there comes a point where you could just be laying, like rocking back and forth. Because it is a lot. So you do have to learn how to deal with it. But again, you know, what a privilege it is just be tired of talking, but not having experienced it,

MICHELE: you know? Absolutely. And it leads to us having to find an outlet, because it takes a toll on us emotionally, physically, mentally. And so too often, then we’re still demonized, whether we get help or need help. And so, it really, we have to find new ways of letting that out, as we’re changing the workplace as we’re changing policies and cultures, and really systemic racism overall, is what I mean, but in very specific ways. How do we go about and change that? So we still have to do our own healing from racial trauma, especially in the workplace?

MARIELLE: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Because right now, and I don’t think I’ve shared this with you. But right now I’m working with a coach who is, and I invest a lot in coaches, but this coach is a specific energy coach, and she’s helping me deal with a lot of the traumas that I’ve experienced, and, you know, everything stays in our body, you know, whether we know it or not, it stays within our subconscious. So she’s helping me kind of clear away a lot of the things a lot of the negative experiences that I’ve had, that will prevent me from moving to the next level in my business. And that’s so powerful. And I’m, you know, grateful that I can afford to, to work with a coach, but I just think about people that are in corporate environments that don’t necessarily know that they can get support, or that they could get help, that have just shrunk and lost their voice. Because that was me for a very long time in the corporate world. Like, I just stopped talking after a while because I was like, well, nobody’s really listening to me anyway. Or, you know, I get ridiculed, and I say something. And it just gets ignored if Peter says, it’s okay. And it’s a great idea. So I just began to shrink and really pull back. And I think there’s a lot of people that are kind of existing in corporate spaces, but they’re not fully there. If that makes sense. They kind of shrink and don’t fully, they kind of have like different identities.

MICHELE: I absolutely agree. As we call it code switching.

MARIELLE: Yes, that’s the word. Yeah, that’s right. phrase. Yeah.

MICHELE: code switching. I absolutely. can relate to that. And after a while, I just stopped like, you know what, microbrews have come in. Man froze. Come in all come in. That’s on you.

MARIELLE: Yeah, it takes power. It takes boldness and courage to be like that, because you know, my hair’s natural right now. But for a long time, I was like, is this gonna be okay, you know, and why does it have to be like that? You know?

MICHELE: Exactly. It is fitting into a norm that is not ours. Hmm. set to a standard that is called whiteness. That is not our standard to fit into.

MARIELLE: Yeah. Oh, my gosh, that’s just a big spider that’s disappeared.
From the window. Oh, sorry. Yeah.

MICHELE: So what one additional question I have for you. Yeah, helping with this change in the UK? Do you need to go kill the spider, we can pause while you go kill you.

MARIELLE: It’s fine. I’m just gonna leave it there. It just shocked me because I never got spiders in my house. And I’m like,
What the hell? You walk down, he has no place to go. I know. It’s like, no, come and live here, please. All right. Sorry about that. was watching for them. Okay, so in terms of why I’m doing so, my business women who influence is really about empowering women, first and foremost, to recognize and stand truly in their power. And I work with individuals. And I also do a ton of corporate workshops. So next year, I’m looking to do a lot more corporate workshops in the US, UK, and also the Middle East. I’ve been having some really good conversations there as well. But that essentially I feel is what I’ve been put on this earth to do is to really support and encourage other women to really just own their voice and stand in their power. Because I truly believe each and every one of us right here on this earth has a message to share. And I’m I’m really just passionate about helping women tell that whether that be you know, using LinkedIn using publicity, whatever medium it is, that’s what I’m really focused on doing to to really help make To change in the way that I can.

MICHELE: I love it. I love it. So definitely be sure you connect with Marielle. If you’re on LinkedIn, you can find her there. If you’re on Facebook,

MARIELLE: you have a business page. Yeah, I do. But I think LinkedIn, LinkedIn is fine, just because that’s kind of I’m trying to consolidate my social media. So I think LinkedIn would be the perfect place to connect with me just Marielle again, on LinkedIn. And I’ll be happy to

MICHELE: stay connected with you all. So Marielle, this has been great. You know, we don’t we no longer have that idealize other places for doing well, when they are still have a lot of work to do and in different areas in different ways. We, as black professionals, understand there’s a lot of work to be done to break down systemic racism on both sides of the pond. So

MARIELLE: Oh, absolutely. And I think it all starts with dialogue, just being having those uncomfortable conversations. It will be uncomfortable, but um, but yeah, I think that has to be the starting point.

MICHELLE: All right. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you, everybody for for joining us, and we will talk to you later, everybody. Bye. Bye. Thanks, Michelle. Welcome